1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY In re: Oversight Hearing on County Sheriffs Stenographic report of hearing held in Room 140, Majority Caucus Room, Main Capitol Building, Harrisburg, PA Tuesday, August 17, 1993 10:00 a.m. HON. THOMAS R. CALTAGIRONE, CHAIRMAN MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY Hon. Jerry Birmelin Hon. Christopher McNally Hon. Gregory C. Fajt Hon. Jeffrey E. Piccola Hon. David W. Heckler Hon. Robert D. Rcber Hon. Frank LaGrotta Hon. Karen A. Ritfcer Hon. Kathy M. Manderino Hon. Chris R. Wogan Hon. Albert H. Masland Hon. Frank W. Yandriscvits Also Present: Galina Milahov, Research Analyst Paul Dunkclberger, Republican Research Analyst Reported by: Ann-Marie P. Sweeney, Reporter ANN-MARIE P. SWEENEY 3606 Horsham Drive Mechanicsburg, PA 17055 717-732-5316 ORIGINAL w 2 INDEX PAGE Forrest Soibring, Sheriff, Monroe. County, 4 Secretary l'o State Sheriffs Association Harry Goiger, Sheriff, Pike County, Legislative 17 Director of State Sheriffs Association Eugene Coon, Sheriff, Allegheny County 23 Vern Smith, Sheriff, Clarion County 24 Hank Johnson, Esquire, Counsel to State 8 Sheriffs Association 3 CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE: This is the. oversight hearing on county sheriffs. I'm Tom Caltagirone from Rorks County. I would like the members and staff to introduce themselves for the record. REPRESENTATIVE YANDRISEVITS: Representative Yandrisevits from Northampton County. REPRESENTATIVE MASLAND: Al Masland from Cumberland County. REPRESENTATIVE MANDERINO: Kathy Manderino from Philadelphia County. MS. MILAHOV: Galina Milahov, Research Analyst. REPRESENTATIVE REBER: Ropresentalive Rebcr from Montgomery County. MR. DUNKLEBERGF.R: Paul Dunkleborgor from Republican staff. CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE: As part of the duties of the Judiciary Committee, one of the things I've tried to do over the years is to bring a closer working relationship of court employees, officers of the court. We're going to be meeting with the clerk of courts and the Prothonotaries in the future. We have the president judges, the Common Pleas judges. Last week we met with the district justices, and I think 4 i t K,s important for us in the policymaking and lawmaking aroa of government to establish a close working relationship with those offices in the county, a better working relationship to find out what their problems are and whether or not we created more problems with some of the laws that we pass, to establish a good working dialogue and have an exchange like this, and I think this may have been one of first times that we've had the sheriffs in a forum like this so that we could exchange points of view, and with that T'd like to open it vjp. Don't feel constrained by any formal guidelines. There are none. We're looking for information. We're looking for some thoughts on how we can better improve our operation of government and how we can work with you, and if you would like to start off, we'll start off with Sheriff Forrest Seibring. MR. SETBRTNG: Okay, in reply to the communication that was mailed to us, T tried to put together here a package on duties and roles of the sheriff, so I'm going to read a brief statement and then T wish if you had any questions or whatever that I could possibly try to answer them. The sheriff, as a peace officer under criminal procedure, as a peace officer, the sheriff is 5 responsible for maintaining order throughout: the county and for preserving and quelling riots and uprisings. These duties were ones of major importance. Today ho shares this responsibility u/ith State and local police officers. Ho makes arrests both with and without warrants, may execute civil warrants, may seize illegal property or property used in violation of the law and may remove certain nuisances on a court order. The sheriff has certain responsibilities in extradition procedure. He issues firearms license and has special law enforcement duties under certain general codes of law such as the Dog Law, the fish law, and the Military Code. It's the duty of the sheriff to keep the peace. The general powers of a peace officer. From the earlier days the sheriff has been a peace officer. It has been his responsibility to keep the peace, to apprehend those who fail to keep the peace, and to protect law-abiding citizens. Originally, the sheriff was the major and sometimes the sole law enforcement officer in the county. From time to time other officers have been established with certain law enforcement duties. These include police even in the cities, boroughs, townships, and the State Police who also act within the county where the sheriff has 6 jurisdiction. These, offices under ordinary circumstances relieve the sheriff of most, if not all, of the responsibilities for keeping the peace and maintaining order. The district attorney of the county, with the detectives who work under him, as well as the local and State Police, undertake a great deal of criminal investigation. However, the sheriff is still the chief law enforcement officer of the county and has full powers as criminal investigating officials. The sheriff still possesses a number of general peace powers and often has need to exorcise them. Some of those powers are under the old common law and it would be difficult to find precise statutory authority for the sheriff to use themselves. This includes the general powers to keep the peace and to prevent riot and insurrection. In Monroe County, we're very much involved with the court on a day-to-day basis, as we spoke here before we started. We serve all of the warrants that come out of the court, serve all of the court orders, and assist the local and State Police on a day-to-day basis with their duties, as well as our duties. And we have a very cooperative effort in Monroe County. We collect fines and costs from time to time for domestic relations for the court or whatever, 7 but it would appear from just what" we talked about briefly here that wo all. have the same problem. We have the indigents in the county that seem to owe us the money. And how are we going to get it? We are in a process right now of starting a community-based work release program. T think on the county level as well as the State level it's a matter of finance, and how much can we afford to do? And that's basically what I have. Tf you have any questions, I'd be glad to try to answer. CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE: Let's open it up to the committee. Questions? MR. DUNKLEBERGER: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN CALTAGIRONE: Yes, go ahead. BY MR. DUNKLEBERGER: Q. Hi, Forrest. A. How are you doing? Q. You stated in here that sheriffs have full police powers or have certain police powers. A. Yes. Q. In the court case Commonweallh vs. — was it: Lee? A. Leet. Q. That courts ruled that, sheriffs are not 8 por SG law enforcGme.nl: officers with arrest: powers. Would you try to clear that up for me? A. I'm going to let our attorney answer that. He'll give it to you in better answer than T. MR. JOHNSON: Hank Johnson, solicitor for the Sheriffs Association. That, was the case of Commonwealth vs. Lect, Armstrong County, which held only that sheriffs were not empowered to enforce the Motor Vehicle Code, and that's all that that case held, and that is presently on appeal to the Supreme Court and we're expecting a decision any day from the Supreme Court. Does that answer your question, sir? BY MR. DUNKLEBERGER: (Of Mr. Johnson) Q. Yes, it does somewhat. Just the Motor Vehicle Code? Was there — I guess it didn't address the issue of the Crimes Code? A. Everyone ought to read that dissenting opinion. That was a 4 to 3 decision, and the dissenting opinion is probably the best article written on sheriff's powers in existence. The Justices took various briefs that were filed and pulled them all together in a real fine article, and the gist of 1 he dissenting opinion is that, the sheriff was a constitutional officer, always has been a 9 constitutional officer, and under the laws that were and are on the books, u/hatcvor powers a sheriff possessed at common law remained his under the Constitution. And no law can fake those powers away. A legislature may add to those powers, but they can't decrease those powers. And the dissenting opinion goes through the history of all this, cites laws that the legislature passed and makes reference in its opinion to where they repealed certain laws, they always were careful not. to repeal sections involving the sheriff, in recognition of the fact that he was a constitutional officer and they could not take away his power. That dissenting opinion, as I've stated, is probably one of the best articles written on sheriff's powers in Pennsylvania that exists to date. Q. Let mo pose a hypothetical situation. Tf a sheriff sees, let's say, a drunken driver going down the road, swerving or whatever, does he have the power to pull him over and make a DUT arrest? A. That's a violation of the Motor Vehicle Code and at this time, until the Supreme Court acts, I would say that the sheriff should not do that because until Superior Court is overruled, that's the law of the land. So my answer to you would be that he has the power as a citizen to do that.