Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Public Accounts Chairperson Mr. Jack Reimer Constituency of Southdale Vol. LV No. 4 - 1 p.m., Wednesday, September 8, 2004 ISSN 0713-9543 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon Riel N.D.P. VACANT Minto MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. VACANT Turtle Mountain WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Wednesday, September 8, 2004 TIME – 1 p.m. Annual Report of the Operations of the Office of the Auditor General for the fiscal year ending LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba March 31, 2003 CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale) Auditor General's Report – Follow-up on VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Jim Maloway Previously Issued Recommendations on (Elmwood) Business Planning and Performance Measurement Report dated December 2003 ATTENDANCE - 11 – QUORUM - 6 Auditor General's Report – Audit of the Public Accounts dated March 31, 2003 Members of the Committee present: Auditor General's Report – Information Technology Report dated March 2004 Hon. Messrs. Gerrard, Selinger *** Mr. Aglugub, Ms. Irvin-Ross, Messrs. Loewen, Maloway, Martindale, Ms. Oswald, Mr. Reimer, Mr. Chairperson: Will the Standing Committee on Mrs. Taillieu Public Accounts please come to order. Substitutions: Committee Substitution Mrs. Rowat for Mrs. Mitchelson Mr. Chairperson: Before we proceed, we do have a substitution. I have before me the resignation of Mrs. APPEARING: Mitchelson from the committee. Mr. Len Derkach, MLA for Russell Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Chair, with Hon. Ms. Christine Melnick, MLA for Riel the unanimous consent of the committee, I would Mr. Stuart Murray, MLA for Kirkfield Park like to make the following membership substitution Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson, MLA for River East effective immediately for the Standing Committee on Mr. Jon Singleton, Auditor General Public Accounts: Mrs. Rowat for Mrs. Mitchelson. Ms. Bonnie Lysyk, Deputy Auditor General and Chief Operating Officer Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by Mr. Loewen that Mrs. Rowat replace Mrs. Mitchelson on MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: the committee. Is that agreed? [Agreed] Provincial Auditor's Report on Compliance and * * * Special Audits for the fiscal year ended March Mr. Chairperson: Several reports have been 31, 2001 referred to this committee for their consideration this Public Accounts Volume 1, 2, 3 and 4 for the afternoon. With the passage of the Public Accounts fiscal year ending March 31, 2003 Volume 1, 2 and 3 for the year ending March 31, Auditor General's Report – Value-for-Money 2002, the following remaining reports remain to be Audit, Student Financial Assistance Program considered: Provincial Auditor's Report on dated September 2002 Compliance and Special Audits for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2001; Public Accounts Volume 1, Auditor General's Report – Audit of the Public 2, 3 and 4 for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003; Accounts for the year ending March 31, 2002 Auditor General's Report – Value-for-Money Audit, Auditor General's Report – An Examination of Student Financial Assistance Program dated RHA Governance in Manitoba January 2003 September 2002; Auditor General's Report – Audit 94 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 8, 2004 of the Public Accounts for the year ending March 31, Mr. Loewen: Just for clarification because the 2002; Auditor General's Report – An Examination of process is that we have an opening statement from RHA Governance in Manitoba January 2003; Annual the Minister of Finance and then an opportunity for Report of the Operations of the Office of the Auditor the critic to make some opening remarks. I have General for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003; some opening remarks that I think are better suited to Auditor General's Report – Follow-up on Previously preceding the Auditor General's comments on the Issued Recommendations on Business Planning and report. Performance Measurements Report dated December 2003; Auditor General's Report – Audit of the Public * (13:10) Accounts dated March 31, 2003; Auditor General's Report – Information Technology Report dated Mr. Chairperson: Just as a matter of clarification, March 2004. in regard to the opening remarks, as was requested by the minister, the Minister of Family Services (Ms. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I was Melnick) would have some opening remarks. The proposing to seek leave from the committee today to critic, Mr. Loewen, would have some opening have the Hydra House report be dealt with by this remarks, and then I believe Mr. Singleton would committee without it having been referred by the have a review of the report. Is there agreement to House. that? Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent of the Point of Order committee that the investigation of Hydra House Ltd. and the review of the related Department of Family Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Derkach, on a point of order. Services and Housing financial accountability frame- work be considered today? [Agreed] Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I understand that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) asked for With regard to the agreement just reached leave of the committee to allow the Minister of concerning consideration of the Hydra House report, Family Services (Ms. Melnick) to come forward and I would like to remind members that the normal make opening remarks. I am wondering, in the spirit practice is to first have the report tabled in the House of the intent of the letter that was sent to me by the and then referred to this committee by the House Leader of the government, whether or not the Government House Leader. I would suggest that this minister would also be available to answer questions not be considered a precedent for the committee. as regards Hydra House during this investigation of Thank you. the Auditor's report. Are there any suggestions for the committee as Mr. Chairperson: I believe the preliminary to how long we should sit this afternoon? discussions we are having right now are for the opening statement that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I suggest we sit Selinger) requested. Then the procedure would be to till 5 p.m. the opening critic, to Mr. Singleton, and then I believe it would go back to the minister for Mr. Chairperson: Is it agreed? [Agreed] questions. Is that correct? I believe that is the How does the committee wish to proceed this procedure we will be following. afternoon? I think that answers your question, Mr. Derkach. Mr. Selinger: I was going to request leave of the committee to allow the Minister for Family Services Mr. Derkach: I am wondering whether it is the and Housing (Ms. Melnick) to give some opening Minister of Finance or the Minister of Family comments. Services that will be answering questions. Mr. Chairperson: I should point out that it was Mr. Chairperson: I can only refer to the discussions agreed at yesterday's meeting a brief overview of the that were held around the table at yesterday's content of the report put forth by the Auditor General meeting. It is my understanding that a letter was first. Is there agreement to that? [Agreed] provided to the opposition offering a discussion on September 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 95 Hydra House report today, and further advising that Mr. Chairperson: I will ask one more time. Is there the Honourable Ms. Melnick would be available to agreement on the procedure I have outlined? come and answer questions. [Agreed] I believe that was covered in the letter that was * * * sent to you, Mr. Derkach. Mr. Gerrard: I understand we have agreed to the * * * procedure, but I have a comment which is directly relevant to how we proceed.