Penuell Maduna Constitutional Court Oral History Project Int This is an interview with Dr. Penuell Maduna and it’s the 3rd of February 2012. Dr. Maduna, thank you so much for taking the time to participate in the Constitutional Court Oral History Project. We really appreciate the generosity of your time and your patience! PM (laughter) Int I wondered if we could start at the very beginning, early childhood memories, where you were born, a bit about family background and what were some of the key experiences of social injustices that may have prompted you to take the life path that you took? PM I grew up in Soweto, in a place called Rockville; I was actually born here in Johannesburg. I grew up in my grandmother’s house. That was her house and eventually of course, my uncle, the main man in the house, Richard Maduna, took over, ja. My grandmother, though a domestic worker like my mother was quite politically active and conscious. She had a banned friend, we used to call Gogo Ntombela, grandmother Ntombela and I used to do errands for the two of them. So, as a banned person and my grandmother was also known to be quite conscious and quite active, ja. So, obviously, the two of them were seen together, the system, as we used to call it were able to put one and one together and the two of them would be detained. So, I would do errands and I became aware of what was happening. But besides my grandmother died a card-carrying member of the African National Congress. It was one of her prized meagre possessions. Card signed in 1958 by the late Oliver Tambo and Walter Sisulu and even when the ANC was banned in 1960. She decided look, I am not going to part with this one. And of course, you have asked how I became personally politically, politically conscious…. Int Sure… PM In that environment, where politics and political developments used to be discussed, you know, literally everyday. My grandmother used to read all newspapers, you know, especially, the Sunday ones. She used to wear the loose, round glasses and she would sit and just go through, if it was not the Bible, she would read all the newspapers. Right, so the Star, then Rand Daily Mail, the Sunday Express, etc. So, I was exposed to all those and then in 1961, the government issued coins, and in my school, we got bronze ones. And my uncle, Richard Maduna, said look, these don’t belong here and he instructed my elder brother and me to throw them away and we went out at dusk to….do that. As a little boy and the…you know, twelve years younger 1 than my elder brother, I may look old now, I couldn’t understand what was happening. But I accepted the instruction nonetheless, because I mean, what else could I do, I lived in the man’s house. He didn’t give us any reason but ten years later in 1971, I was part of the student body when we were campaigning against the celebration and commemoration of the Republic of South Africa, the birth of the Republic of South Africa, the tenth anniversary and we were saying no, we are not part of it. I was then aware that in fact, we were victims and products of a, a Union dating back to 1910, which had not unified the people of South Africa. We were victims of the system of apartheid, an offshoot of British colonialism, so I was aware of all that and we were campaigning against that. Then of course, I was influenced heavily so by the South African Students Organisation, which was led by the likes of the late Steve Biko and Mthuli ka Shezi and people like those when I was at varsity, the late Abram Onkgopotse Tiro who died in a bomb explosion. In fact, yes, on the 1st of this month (February), two days ago, we were commemorating yet another anniversary of his demise. Those were great influences on some of us. I became a leader of the South African Students Organisation myself at the University of Zululand and in 1976… Oh ja, let me walk a step back, we, in 1974, we were involved in what we called the Frelimo Rally. We…you know, we marked the victory of the struggle of the people of Mozambique, led by Frelimo, right, when former President Chissano landed in Mozambique with a delegation, etc, after the fall of the Quitano regime in Portugal. So, we were participating in all those, of course there were the 1973 labour strikes as well, that started in Durban, we were conscious of them and we were doing quite a lot of creative and innovative things as student activists, in solidarity with the workers, right and Frelimo Rally, in 1974, ’76 I was eventually detained because we responded to the…19…to the events of June 16th, which started here in Soweto, right, we responded as a student body and I was captured on the 25th of June and I was detained. Actually, when we came before court, the case was…the case of the State vs. Maduna and others. I happened for all my sins to be that Maduna and we were prosecuted. We were defended by the great…one of whom became our first black Chief Justices, that is Ismail Mohammed, who is late. He was assisted by Andrew Wilson and Judge Skweyiya, who is the Judge of the Constitutional Court now right. They were instructed by Nyembezi, Aubrey Nyembezi in Durban and needless to say at the end of the State’s case, we were all discharged because the State couldn’t make a good case against us. And after that, immediately, well not immediately but couple of months later, I was detained and you know, eventually appeared before court again and quite a number of very interesting things were happening there, including, you know, a riot inside court, when the judge, a Greek of Pietermaritzburg then was presiding and at the end of the day, he had decided, look he was not going to hear the matter because really things had happened. We had fought the members of the Security Branch right in court and we were then separated, those of us who were having a reputation of being activists, were separated from the rest and we were tried in Durban. As luck would have it again the State didn’t make a good case against me and I was acquitted but two of the advocates who defended me were indeed the former Chief Justice, Pius Langa and Moremo Morane, 2 who is still quite active in the legal profession in Durban. He is based in Durban and wonderful time right. Acquitted, once again and the ANC decided look you better come out because otherwise the next thing they are going to shoot you. Indeed, an attempt had been made on me in my township in Rockville but again they had failed, right. I worked for a short while for Priscilla Jana and Associates, which was quite high profile among lawyers in Johannesburg, right. And I have fond memories there with the likes of Elon Kleinschmidt and people like those, right. And I had to go into exile, as I have said. Spent time in exile, went really all over. I suppose my high-powered activism made me noticeable among leaders of the ANC. I lived for a short while with Judge Albie Sachs in Mozambique and Maputo in his place, in this apartment with the late Chris Hani, we were sharing everything, including the bathtub, the kitchenette and whatever, right. And great moments may I say, right. Lived together there. Then I got an opportunity to go to New York to work with Jack Greenberg, who had featured prominently in the, in the case of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 1954 with the late Thurgood Marshall, and I got exposed to all those things, right. People like Judges Leon Higgambotham, got exposed to them from you know, Howard University in Washington D.C. So, it was a pleasant moment for me and the ANC recalled me to Lusaka because they thought that they needed quite a number of people with my skills and you know, to exposure to work on focusing on the way back home and indeed I was quite privileged because I worked with some of the finest of South Africa’s leaders; the late Oliver Tambo to name but a few, Nzo, Alfred Nzo, Thomas Godi, Thabo Mbeki himself, right, Pallo Jordaan. Together we worked a whole lot of things, including for instance the anticipation of the so-called Rubicon Speech, you know, which happened post-Gabwe, right. Very interesting times. Great debates even about whether or not, the ANC should begin thinking about negotiation and negotiated settlement and especially after the May 20th bombing blast in 1983 and they met the agents of the Tri-cameral parliament. I was quite active, you know, in all those years and in all those issues, right. So, worked with the leadership producing very interesting documents under the watch of Tambo, as I have said you know. Documents for instance, which were dealing with the emergence of the Eminent Person’s Group after the Commonwealth Bahamas Nassau Bahamas summit, right. We interacted with them. I was also privileged with a lot of South Africans, who came out to see us in Lusaka and all the way to Dakar, Zimbabwe.