South Africa South Africa Jaya Appalraju ANC-Student in Sweden Executive Director of Matla Trust (Johannesburg, 14 September 1995) Tor Sellstrsm: When and how did you come to Sweden? Jaya Appalraju: I came to Lund in April or May 1968. I had made an initial visit in December 1967 on the recommendation and suggestion of the ANC office in London. I had come to London two years before that, in 1966. I finished my university entrance in England with the intention of going to university there. The ANC Chief Representative at the time was Reg September and he and people like MP Naicker, Aziz Pahad and Thabo Mbeki recommended ANC students to look at the Scandinavian countries as a possible place for further study. Since London was just as new to me-although it was English-spealdng-I decided to investigate it further and went to Sweden in December 1967, where I decided that I was going to apply for a grant. I got the response in March 1968 and left. It was a small student grant, which paid for my initial travel and the first three months. I was then told that I could apply for various student support grants, which I did. That is how I got to Sweden. TS: Was this through the Swedish National Union of Students (SFS)? JA: Yes. That is right. TS: At that time, were there other ANC students in Lund? JA: There were other South African studentssome of them were ANC-whom I had gone to see. One of them was Billy Modise. Raymond Mokoena from South Africa and Sydney Sekeramayi from Zimbabwe were also there. Rupiah Banda from Zambia had just left. And, of course, there were quite a few Namibians from both SWANU and SWAPO. It was only when I had gone there to discuss with them that they recommended that I should come. None of the other South Africans who were also recommended to come actually ended up in Scandinavia. They had gone to other countries. TS: You came to Sweden at a time when the student movement was very active. There was a strong anti-imperialist solidarity movement with Vietnam and Southern Africa. How did you view this? JA: I think that it was one of the major aspects that convinced me that I should go to Scandinavia, actually. When I initially arrived there before deciding to apply , I found that the political climate of support was positive. While that existed in England as well, it tended to be much more complex. The South African issue seemed to be buried amongst everything else and the task of organization was much more difficult there. In Sweden, I found that even though the scales were smaller and you were talking to a much smaller group of people, the possibilities of actually operating and working in that political climate were much more exciting, much more positive. I therefore decided to go there. TS: Did you find it strange that the Nordic countries, being Western countries and in two cases even NATO members, were involved in struggles that otherwise mainly were supported by the Soviet bloc? JA: That was extremely strange and, again, a major motivating factor. There was this situation-which was not prevalent in other parts of Europe-where NATO members would openly criticize the position of the United States vis-I-vis Vietnam and there was very little open opposition to our cause. There were hurdles, there were obstacles, but there was no real opposition to the Southern African struggle, given the backdrop of the political climate of the time. Yes, big power politics entered as well, but in spite of that we found that the room for manoeuvre, the room for operating, on the issues of Southern Africa was much greater both at the information and at the political level. We always raised the issue of Southern Africa, not just South Africa. In fact, it was ANC's position to always raise the issue in the context of Namibia, FRELIMO's struggle in Mozambique, MPLA's struggle in Angola and of ZAPU- ZANU in Zimbabwe. We always raised it in that context. One of the issues that we debated very strongly within the solidarity organizations was, firstly, whether that was Liberation in Southern Africa -Regional and Swedish Voices the best strategy and whether one could define the Southern African region as subject to subimperialism. Secondly, whether one should actually project the image of Southern Africa at that time as a weaker link of imperialism and look at Mozambique and Angola in that light. Our position was always that we should do that and that the struggles were intimately linked. I found the atmosphere very exciting. We also had to compete with other issues around the world very strongly. But in the Scandinavian countries there was a sense of general camaraderie and support. TS: Did you also visit the other Nordic countries? JA: Yes, I went to Denmark, Norway and Finland. And, of course, to various parts of Sweden. At the time, there was not an organized ANC presence in Sweden. There were individuals who were doing ANC work with the solidarity movements. TS: Was Sweden covered under the London office? JA: Yes, people used to come over from London from time to time, but there was no really serious representation. That was a problem. TS: Were there ANC students in the other Nordic countries? JA: There were a few, like Freddy Reddy in Norway. I cannot recall all the names, but there were a few people. In Denmark as well. But in all these countries there was no officially recognized ANC representation as such. That was an internal issue that we had to face by organizing ourselves and by bringing in leaders from London and elsewhere. We reported as much as we could on the projects and the support that we had and argued that more attention ought to be paid to the Nordic countries. A lot of intensive work was done at that stage. TS: I guess that you mainly worked with the Africa Group in Lund? JA: Yes, the Africa Group was the most consistent support group. They had very little resources to assist the various campaigns, but would advise us on what to do, where to go etc. They would arrange meetings at various places, in clubs, schools, organizations of various types, trade union groups and so forth. It was very rewarding when I look back at it now. But we were also craving for some kind of recognition from the state and the government and had great difficulty in carving out an identity for ourselves at the same time as we were working under the umbrella of the existing Swedish solidarity organizations, which had a very clear identity. Sometimes this worked against us and sometimes it was in our favour. So, while the Africa Groups were very supportive, at times we had to distance ourselves from their positions. TS: That could not have been easy. The Africa Groups were critical about the government and at the same time the government was more progressive than other governments? JA: Precisely! The Socsal Democrats were just as supportive, but perhaps they were not as informed as the Africa Groups on the Southern African situation. TS: Thabo Mbeki has said that the crucial element in the Nordic involvement with the liberation movements in Southern Africa was that they in the 1970s recognized the liberation movements as governments-in-waiting, so to speak. Until then they had rather been seen as resistance movements. JA: Yes, I agree. Things happened very quickly from 1968 in terms of ANC recognition and support. It was surprising. We did not get that kind of recognition anywhere else. Elsewhere we worked only with the support groups, in the United States, Europe and so forth. TS: When did you leave Sweden? JA: Well, I left Sweden at different points and came back. I finished my studies in 1973/74 and went for further training in England. I came back to Sweden and finally left in 1980 for Tanzania. That was on the suggestion and organization of the late Thomas Nkobi, who used to come to Sweden at the time. He was developing various projects and was closely involved with the Scandinavian countries in Tanzania. Nkobi found my skills relevant to project planning, but, again, we were very restrained with resources and he quite simply asked me to apply for jobs in Tanzania from where I could also assist with the Solomon Mahlangu Freedom College and later with the Dakawa project. I did so and went to Tanzania under a UN hat. TS: The planning of the ANC settlements was to a large extent done in cooperation with Norway? JA: That is right. I worked mainly with Dennis Oswald and a little bit with Spencer Hodgson. Dennis was the first ANC Director of Construction and Projects. Later on I was involved South Africa with the planning of Dakawa, while working with the Tanzanian government in the Ministry of Planning, Housing and Urban Development. TS: I know that O.R. Tambo requested that you should be transferred to Zimbabwe and work in the Ministry of Local Government there. In Harare you became very involved with what was called the PASA projectplanning for a post- apartheid South Africawith a number of activities taking place between the home front and the exiled leadership. JA: Yes, the move from Tanzania alter three and a half years was instigated, as you say, by Oliver Tambo. The intensity, the content and the style of the liberation movement were rapidly changing.