interview The Spectator in the Breast of Man Self-regulation and the Decline of Civility Peter Saunders talks to Theodore Dalrymple heodore Dalrymple is probably best known because of your bad childhood, you burgled that house for his weekly columns in The Spectator and because you wanted to take something in it and you T his essays in the American quarterly City didn’t know how else to go about getting it because Journal. He is a psychiatric doctor working in an inner you’re unskilled, you have no intention of getting any city area in Britain where he is attached to a large skills’—and they start laughing! And oddly enough, hospital and a prison. His columns report on the when I speak with them quite plainly, my relations lifestyles and ways of thinking of Britain’s growing with them improve. underclass, and in his latest book, Life at the Bottom, he warns that this underclass culture is spreading PS: Has anybody ever hit you!? through the whole society. Peter Saunders interviewed him for Policy. TD: No, never! I mean there are the true psychopaths who make one’s blood run cold because they are Peter Saunders: You’ve been writing this column in The untouchable by normal human relationships. But they Spectator for 12 years, and now the book has come out. are relatively few. So my relations with the prisoners Your essays are very rich descriptively, but what is the are extremely good. To give you another example, drug basic message that we should take away from reading addicts come in and they spin me a line, and I just them? won’t have it. There’s initially friction because I refuse to prescribe for them and one of the things that’s very Theodore Dalrymple: I think it’s the idea that people difficult to get across is that withdrawal effects from are not billiard balls. They’re not impacted on by forces heroin, for example, are very minor. They’re trivial. like cold fronts in the weather and react accordingly. They actually think about what they’re doing. For PS: Really? That’s not the way it’s portrayed, is it? example, criminals are conscious of what they’re doing and they respond to incentives. And they have a TD: It’s not the way it’s portrayed but it is actually the culture—they have beliefs about what they’re doing. truth. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve withdrawn from heroin. You never get any problems with it. It’s PS: But what comes through in your essays is that they not like withdrawal from serious drinking which can themselves talk as though they are billiard balls. be, and often is, a medical emergency. From a medical point of view, I’m much more worried in the prison TD: Well, I think they’ve been taught to speak like that. And you can actually break it down by saying to Peter Saunders is the Director of Social Research them, ‘Now come on! You didn’t burgle that house Programmes at The Centre for Independent Studies. Winter 2002 23 THE SPECTATOR IN THE BREAST OF MAN when someone tells me he’s an alcoholic. I’m much argot. I call needles ‘needles’ and syringes ‘syringes’. I more worried about the physical consequences of his absolutely refuse to pretend that I have anything to do withdrawal because they are really serious, and he can with their (I hate to use the word ‘culture’) way of life. die from them. But nobody ever dies from heroin withdrawal. With the vast majority of them, you just PS: Your thesis is that this ‘culture’ (in an take them aside and say: ‘I’m not prescribing anything anthropological sense) extends far beyond the people for you, I will prescribe symptomatic relief if I see you you’re seeing in prison and in hospital. There are have symptoms, but what you tell me has nothing to chapters in your book where you’re venturing into the do with it, I’m not going to be moved by any of your betting shops and the night clubs. screaming.’ One chap came in and said ‘What are you prescribing me?’ and I said ‘Nothing’, and he screamed TD: Yes, the worst of it is, you see, that the people in at me, ‘You’re a butcher! You’re a f***ing butcher’, and those night clubs are not the underclass. It’s widespread. he screamed and shouted and eventually I said ‘Take It’s people in their 20s, their late 20s, and I don’t know him away’. Everyone outside heard this, and they were if they’re ever going to grow out of it. I do meet like lambs! intelligent people and they come to me and they know that there’s PS: Are you getting respect from these The drug-treating something missing in their lives, but guys because you’re being tough? So establishment tries they don’t know what it is. I tell them you’re appealing to that macho, tough- that what’s lacking is any kind of guy culture? to ingratiate itself educational or cultural interest, but with drug takers they don’t seem to be able to acquire TD: I think it’s because what I’m one, even though there are of course saying is true. And because I am by seeing every- ways of doing so. prepared to put myself out for them. thing from their For example, if they have difficulty point of view. PS: Is this just an exaggerated fashion, contacting their lawyer, which must be a fad that young people go through? very frightening for someone, I will do that kind of thing for them. Plus of TD: Well, I suppose it’s possible for course I do my best for them medically. I do what I someone at 28 to get educated, but it’s difficult. I’ve think is right. And I’m not going to be diverted either often wondered whether, just as if a child doesn’t acquire by them or by the prison administration, which also a language by shall we say the age of six, so too if a tries to get you to do things which are wrong. I’ve told child hasn’t learned to concentrate by the age of 12 or the officers, with these people you have to play it something, if they don’t acquire the habit of absolutely straight. You need some kind of moral concentration, then I don’t know that it’s something superiority over them. they ever learn. PS: And your thesis would be that this is what all PS: It’s interesting that you raise intelligence, because institutions ought to be doing—that hospitals, schools, Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein’s book about prisons and so on ought to be playing it straight? the underclass in America links it very strongly to low intelligence. You don’t accept that? TD: Yes. And we’ve ceased to do this. One of the reasons is that people are very sentimental. When it comes, for TD: I don’t believe that. I dare say that there is a example, to dealing with drug addicts, there’s no concentration of less intelligent people in the underclass, question in my mind that the drug-treating but I don’t think the phenomenon that I’ve described establishment tries to ingratiate itself with the drug can be explained in biological terms. After all, the takers by seeing everything from their point of view. behaviour of the football fans can’t be explained like But I don’t see it from their point of view. I see what that. If it were true, why is it not true in every country they’re doing as wrong. It’s wrong from every point of and every place? view and it’s wrong for them personally, and I’m not going to tell them anything else. I refuse to use their PS: Do you see this as peculiarly a British problem? 24 Policy vol. 18, no. 2 THE SPECTATOR IN THE BREAST OF MAN TD: It’s worse in Britain, but it’s not peculiar to it. I saying that it’s something that’s developed since the understand it’s getting worse in countries like France, 1960s—it’s come out of the intellectual ferment of that for very similar reasons. I go to France a fair amount, decade, and it’s trickled down, and now we’re living and one of the things I notice is the increasing French with the consequences of it. So what is this culture? anxiety about their level of education. The same causes are producing the same results. TD: First of all I think it’s a radical egotism. And self- importance. What one wants oneself becomes all PS: So it’s obviously multi-causal, but you’re locating important. At the same time as that egotism, you also one of the causes of this problem in the education have a conception of rights. I suppose you can say it’s system? the libertarian right admixed with an element from the left of a rights-driven TD: Well, it’s certainly not helping. I In some ways agenda. think schools could possibly be one way out for poor people, to give the children Mrs Thatcher was PS: A lot of people look back on the an alternative view of life. But there’s a mirror-image 1980s—the Thatcher decade—and say no attempt to do so.