wi Ch iq o k mundeu COULD YOU MAKE SOME GENERAL YOU MENTIONED IN THE PREVIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT THE DEVELOPMENTS INTERVIEWS THAT THERE WERE ALL IN THE UNION SINCE THE ’70 AND ’71 SORTS OF CROSS-CURRENTS OF OP­ INTERVIEWS? INION GOING THROUGH THE PARTY ABOUT THAT TIME WHICH INFLUEN­ I think the most important single advance has CED YOU. WAS THERE A GENERAL been our intervention in the non-traditional STRATEGIC LINE, AND COULD YOU areas, particularly on the environment. Having ELABORATE ON THAT? in mind that we are the most urbanised country on earth, the destruction of the urban environ­ Once having commenced on the track, we ments particularly in Sydney but also now in found the tremendous response I spoke Melbourne and, to a growing extent in Bris­ about, and among the thinking segment of bane, means that we’ve been in a fairly ad­ the population we now enjoy tremendous vantageous position. We are the first building support, something I didn’t envisage as workers on a project, and no building can be secretary of the union when we started. demolished without builders’ labourers. I think jt bears out the contention that I think the biggest thing was that we res­ quality of life issues are increasingly more ponded to the frustration of people who important in a relative sense to purely felt they were powerless to act, such as the economic ones. people of Kelly’s Bush, which triggered it all off. The extent of the frustration was such that we were inundated with requests from WHAT’S YOUR ANSWER TO PEOPLE residents and from other community groups WHO SAY THAT THESE ARE MIDDLE who felt that the collusion between State CLASS ISSUES AND THAT IT’S REALLY governments, the Federal government’s fail­ A DIVERSION FROM THE CLASS ure to act, and most particularly, the poor STRUGGLE WHICH IS NECESSARY TO quality of government at municipal level, OVERTHROW CAPITALISM7 meant that they came to us and requested us to impose bans. I don’t think there was If capitalism is to be overthrown it is any great foresight on the part of the Buil­ essential that a great section of the middle ders’ Labourers Union, but the important class have to be involved. We’ve also had thing was that we responded to other sect­ growing support among the workers too, ions of the community and in this way comm­ and it’s interesting to note the number of enced the astonishing involvement which has rank and file members of other unions who had international repercussions. have come to us. Many of our bans have 15 been in working class areas where the we’re going to have a tremendous struggle. working class themselves have acted in great numbers to impose the ban. There IN OTHER WORDS, YOU SEE THAT THE has been a deliberate attempt by the BUILDING BOOM IN THE SENSE OF CITY Labour Press group, and others, to say OFFICE BUILDINGS COULD DECLINE that we are the darling of the trendies, sell­ SHORTLY AND THEN THE PROBLEM OF ing out the workers, etc. but that hasn’t WDRK FOR BUILDING WORKERS WILL been borne out. It would be true to say ARISE AND THE ISSUE WILL BE - that the majority of our members now WE’VE GOT ALL THESE NEEDS, WHAT strongly support the union’s position. At ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH THIS the same time, we didn’t neglect the ec­ AVAILABLE LABOUR? onomic issues and in particular the ques­ tion of permanency, changing the nature Yes, because I don’t believe those who say of the industry. I believe that if we hadn’t that because of the capital appreciation they had the big strikes of ’70 and '71 based on, can sit out the green bans. If we win the fight first of all, civilising the building industry that the inner city area should be mainly res­ to some extent, lifting up the second class idential , with provision for tow and middle status of the builders' labourers, bringing income earners, then the tremendous app­ forward a formula that the wage variation reciation of capital on the buildings will not should be no wider than 100-90, this sup­ go on. So I think we’re going to have a real port would be far less. Incidentally, our crisis within the building industry in this stand on the gap between “skilled” and area, and it’s wrapped up in permanency “unskilled” was partly responsible for the too, because there are real elements of work ACTU, at the following Congress, putting ers’ control in it. It will mean, as we've put forward that the ratio should be no wider forward for a long time now, that there than 100 - 82. The gap was the thing in should be a Building Investigations Comm­ the five week strike in 1970, and then in ittee to determine which buildings should '71 it was a social issue of accident pay in be built, and in fact had the BWIU and oth­ an accident-prone industry, because of er tradesmen’s unions come along with us the lack of safety, etc. in the fight over the last award, we could But the support arose most importantly have made this a real fighting point. The of all over permanency in the building Master Builders nearly croaked when we industry. Our concept here goes beyond put it forward - you remember their silly just having permanent employment for stuff, “this is workers’ control, it’s anarchy the full year, because to effect permanency they’re taking over”. On the monetary in an industry like ours, where, with each side, th _y coughed up six or ten dollars fluctuation in the economy, the building without any real struggle, whereas before industry is hit, and the imbalance between they were always hard to fight on dough. the commercial and residential sections Now the money was there, but no invading glaring (by the middle of next year, there of our sanctity, they said, by the setting will be ten million square feet of unlet up of any committees to determine which office space in Sydney, compared with buildings should be built. four million now), to win permanency in I think this opens up the other side of it, the building industry would be vastly the social responsibility of workers, the different to winning permanency on the examination of the end result of their waterfront. labuui now on, and I think it’s tied In the building industry, if you’re going right up with the ecological crisis which to have 200,000 building workers employed exists in our society. Once workers, indus­ throughout the year, then you’ve got to sta­ trial workers, start to have a say in the bilise it, and stabilise it in such a way that end result of their work - if, for example, the three tiers of government have to work unemployment built up, and they dem­ out their rate, their preferences, their ratios, anded that money be diverted to hospit­ and the expenditure on each. Insurance com­ als, to the public sector, instead of to panies and hot money flowing into the coun office buildings - I think that would be try have put up superfluous office buildings. partly workers’ control and also an exp­ To win permanency goes way beyond any- ression of social responsibility by the thinq else that’s been achieved, and I think workers themselves. 16 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW DECEMBER 1S73 And take the motor vehicle --1 think the Kelly’s Bush women, nearly all upper that motor vehicles have got to go in the middle class, who went down in front of way in which they’re being produced now; the bulldozer. But then the same militancy they’ve got to be restricted and greater was shown at Eastlakes, which is certainly emphasis placed on public transport. For the other end of the social ladder from that to happen, I think there’s got to be Hunter’s HilL It’s this that the government shock tactics by the workers themselves, hasn’t been able to handle, and I think it the workers have got to take it up, and shows the potentially revolutionary charac­ a section of the workers have to be invol­ ter of eoological action, people in action. ved. And I consider that what the builders’ lab­ ourers have done has only been a tiny step DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE HONESTLY along the road as to how unions have to TAKEN IT UP IN THEIR OWN HEARTS? involve themselves in the future. In the motor vehicle industry, for example, I think the time will come when the thinking work­ When we embarked on the green bans, the ers will have to tadde the whole question leadership was a long way ahead of the mem­ of saying, well, we shouldn’t be making bership -1 think that’s the real position. I see these cars, we should divert our energies that a most essential ingredient is leadership. elsewhere. It will mean that some indust The very fact that we’re defending workers’ ries will have to curtail the number of homes, defending the right of people to live people involved, and by raising their con­ in the city, means that workers could identify. sciousness, with the rest transferring over Even though many of them might be forced out to other industries performing work that to live at Mount Druitt and beyond, they is socially beneficial to the community at could identify with those people who were large.