Fred R. Harris Oral History Interview – RFK#1, 07/29/1970 Administrative Information Creator: Fred R. Harris Interviewer: Roberta W. Greene Date of Interview: July 29, 1970 Place of Interview: Washington, D.C. Length: 26 pages Biographical Note Harris was an Oklahoma State Senator from 1956 to 1964; the U.S. Senator from Oklahoma from 1964 through 1973; the chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 1969 to 1970; and a close friend of Robert F. Kennedy [RFK] during their time together in the Senate. In this interview Harris discusses his work with RFK in the Senate on various committees; RFK’s relationship with other senators and with President Lyndon B. Johnson; the attempts to stall and amend the 1967 social security bill; working on the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders; RFK’s decision to run for President in 1968; and working on Hubert H. Humphrey’s 1968 presidential campaign, among other issues. Access Open. 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Greene, July 29, 1970, (page number), Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the John F. Kennedy Library. Fred R. Harris – RFK #1 Table of Contents Page Topic 1 Harris and Robert F. Kennedy [RFK] start in the U.S. Senate together, 1964 2 RFK’s work on committees and subcommittees 3 RFK’s holds back criticism of President Lyndon B. Johnson 3 RFK’s preparation for his Senate work 4 Working with fellow senators 6 RFK’s interest in Indian-related issues 6 1967—RFK speaks in Oklahoma 8 RFK’s and Hubert H. Humphrey’s appearances in front of the National Farmers Union 9 The somewhat “clumsy” staff of the Indian Education Subcommittee 10 Discussing proposed amendments to the 1967 social security bill 11 Working with other senators to try to hold up the social security bill 12 Pressures to allow the social security bill to pass unhindered 13 The social security bill passes 15 Negotiating over the social security bill and proposed amendments 16 Harris on the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders 18 The Commission’s report impresses RFK 18 Harris’ relationship with President Johnson 19 RFK’s strained relationship with President Johnson 20 Instances when Harris asked RFK for his support on specific issues 21 Discussions about Vietnam and RFK’s 1967 speech 22 Harris and RFK’s luncheon with Roger Hilsman 23 No real discussion with Harris of RFK’s decision to run for President, 1968 24 Harris’ commitment to Humphrey’s 1968 campaign and missed connections with RFK Oral History Interview With FRED R. HARRIS July 29, 1970 Washington, D.C. By Roberta W. Greene For the Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the Kennedy Library GREENE: Okay, what I wanted to begin with is kind of obvious. When do you first remember meeting Robert Kennedy [Robert F. Kennedy] and what were the circumstances? HARRIS: I met him the first day I came to the Senate. I had seen him in person before that. We came in—the people who had been nominated for the Senate and were not incumbent—for a kind of school for Democratic candidates. Bob was one of the speakers. It was at that meeting where he made what came to be a rather famous statement about how he was sorry to take so many people over the side with him and that President Johnson [Lyndon B. Johnson] had announced that nobody who was in the Cabinet, or who’d met with the Cabinet, would be chosen as Vice President. That was the first time I saw him in person. Then, the day I came to the Senate was the day after the elections in November of 1964. Mike Mansfield [Michael J. Mansfield] asked Joe Montoya [Joseph M. Montoya], Bass [Ross Bass] of Tennessee, Bob Kennedy and myself—who all happened to be in the Capitol the next day—to come by for coffee, and so we got a chance to visit. I was surprised how small he was; I expected a larger fellow. He was very warm and outgoing, I thought, and a little—very interesting contradictions all remote, too. I think warm and outgoing and remote, at the same time. Those were sort of the first impressions. I was very much impressed with myself on knowing such a person, as famous as he was. I thought, “Oh, my God, isn’t this amazing! Here I am getting to know Robert Kennedy in person.” [Laughter] GREENE: Was there any discussion, then, or in succeeding weeks about committee assignments... [-1-] HARRIS: On (Senate Committee or) Government Operations? GREENE: ...The same committee, yeah. HARRIS: No. No, it was a good long while before we ever really had much of a relationship. I suppose the first time really was in the Government Operation subcommittee on executive reorganization headed by Abe Ribicoff [Abraham A. Ribicoff]. We got into that whole Nader [Ralph Nader]-GM [General Motors Corp.] question of GM having Nader under surveillance. I suppose that’s the first time we really kind of worked on something together. GREENE: That was really his first active participation in that subcommittee, as I recall, wasn’t it? HARRIS: I suppose so because it’s the first time I remember my own participation that much. We later were active in the hearings that Ribicoff had—in the same subcommittee—on city problems. I recall Bob and I particularly asked a lot of the same questions of the building trades unions. He had a whole line of questions about how few minority members they had and so forth. I recall those two thing in particular. They were fairly early, but, of course, the Nader thing was much earlier. GREENE: What was the impression of him within the subcommittee room and within the committee, as a whole? HARRIS: The thought Robert felt toward some witnesses, I thought, he would almost be too mean. He didn’t really ask questions; he really was sort of making statements sometimes in the form of questions. It was terribly effective, I thought. I would say he was conditioned to that. He was intense, he was furious about the issues and he was rather well-prepared. GREENE: Was there a feeling of resentment on the other committee members’ part because he did come on so strong and got so much publicity, especially on this occasion? HARRIS: I’m not aware that there was. There was a member of that committee who often came in late, left early, asked special permission to ask a question or something out of time, and who, thereby, generally made the headlines that day. We used to laugh some about that because Robert was not that kind of person. He didn’t come in and ask for special privileges or anything. It was obvious to everybody that aside from what he did or said, he was going to be specially noticed. I think he felt, you know, that that was a burden about as much as it was an asset. I don’t think people had the feeling that he was pushy. I think most everybody—or really, anybody that I knew— recognized that he, by and large, had no control over the fact that he was that much news. GREENE: Did you ever notice him holding back to keep from stealing the scene, let’s say, from lesser known senators? [-2-] HARRIS: I just wouldn’t know about it. I don’t know of anything like that, except that he would hold back in regard to criticism of the President for a good while. I think he was afraid that that would appear to be political since his brother [John F. Kennedy] had been President, that he was speaking out against Johnson out of either personal political ambition or unreasonable animosity. GREENE: Was this something that he actually discussed with you? HARRIS: At one point. He invited me over to his house one night, to read the Vietnam speech.