NATIONAL LIFE STORIES Science and Religion: Exploring the Spectrum. Life Story Interviews Lewis Wolpert Interviewed by Paul Merchant C1672/06 IMPORTANT This interview and transcript is accessible via http://sounds.bl.uk. © The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom +44 (0)20 7412 7404 [email protected] Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators. The British Library National Life Stories Interview Summary Sheet Title Page Ref no: C1672/06 Collection title: ‘Science and Religion: Exploring the Spectrum’ Life Story Interviews Interviewee’s surname: Wolpert Title: Professor Interviewee’s Lewis Sex: Male forename: Occupation: Professor of Date and place of birth: 19th October 1929, Embryology Johannesburg, South Africa Mother’s occupation: Father’s occupation: general manager in stationers Dates of recording, Compact flash cards used, tracks (from – to): 28/04/2015 (track 1-2), 29/04/2015 (track 3-5), 09/06/2015 (track 6-7) Location of interview: Interviewee's home, London Name of interviewer: Paul Merchant Type of recorder: Marantz PMD661on compact flash Recording format : audio file 12 WAV 24 bit 48 kHz 2-channel Total no. of tracks 7 Mono or stereo: Stereo Total Duration: 4 hrs. 40 min. 21 sec. Additional material: Scanned images Copyright/Clearance: OPEN with 2 closures: track 2 [7:38-10:52] and track 7 [5:55 - 7:31] Interviewer’s comments: Lewis Wolpert Page 1 C1672/06 Track 1 [Track 1] Could you start by telling me then, when and where you were born? Yes. I was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, nineteenth of October, 1929. And could you tell me as much as you can about the life of your father, either things you know because you witnessed them, or things… Yes. No, it’s quite complicated. He was born in Northern Ireland, in Belfast, a Jewish family, and they came to London when he was really quite young and didn’t have a proper… and they were very poor. So he went to work at the Central News Agency, a well-known, rather like WH Smith, when he was about thirteen, fourteen. So he never had a proper education but stayed in that firm until he retired when he was old, and became one of the general managers, so he did very well. But he was very conscious of his lack of education. And his reasons for coming to London, for the move? I don’t really know why they came to London, no. I never knew his father. I knew his mother a bit, but it wasn’t something that one ever discussed as to why they came. [01:25] And the life of your mother? My mother’s family came from Lithuania and they came… and so she was actually born in South Africa, but some of the elder bits of the family were born in Lithuania and they came to Johannesburg. And the elder brothers – they’re really quite a distinguished family actually, that lot – and my father married my mother, I think, partly because he thought he could get some money. [laughs] Because they were moderately well off, they were a much better… and he wanted to buy a coat for his mother. Did you know the grandparents on that side of the family? Lewis Wolpert Page 2 C1672/06 Track 1 I knew her, that was all. What memories do you have of her? Sorry? What memories do you have of her, of the… I wasn’t mad… I used to have to go and visit her with my father on Sunday mornings and I wasn’t mad about it. [02:32] What do you remember of your family home in Johannesburg as a younger child? If you could, can you take us on a tour of it, to actually sort of describe it as far as you can remember it? Yes I do, well I do remember it. I didn’t get on terribly well with my parents, that was one of my problems. I found my mother physically unattractive. I know that’s a sad thing to say, so I didn’t like really being cuddled by her and my father couldn’t stand being contradicted. My mother wanted a nice Jewish boy who would behave like a nice Jewish boy, and I’m afraid that wasn’t me. Also, I didn’t like the way they treated the servants. You know, we had black servants, and I think they were quite hard on them. So I wasn’t terribly happy at home and I don’t think my… I did moderately well at school, I was at a local school and I had good friends there and I enjoyed my friends and playing rugby. [laughs] I didn’t like the school. They taught us in a very physical sort of way. He would hold, for example, not just me but anybody, he’d hold a piece of elastic under my nose and say ‘Wolpert, how many kilometres in five miles?’ And if you got it wrong, ping! The elastic… [laughs] They would humiliate us and beat us and all sorts of things. But we all did really quite well at school and I got a first class in mathematics when I… for matriculation. And yes, I did quite well at school and I didn’t make the top rugby team, but rugby was what really mattered to me, but I did become the captain of the third division and did score the occasional try. I don’t know what I really did. [04:23] Lewis Wolpert Page 3 C1672/06 Track 1 At quite a young age I became interested in science. And I had a cousin who was just a year younger than me and we were very close. My cousin was Jac Herberg who’s my mother’s sister’s son. And we were very involved with Meccano electric trains and even when we were fourteen, fifteen, building radios and I was quite jealous because he understood electricity before [laughs] I did. And that’s really I think partly what mattered to me. And then I did have… I had quite a few good friends, yes. [05:23] Thank you. And the childhood house itself, could you take us on a tour of that? It was quite a, well Johannesburg was quite… it wasn’t a bad house. We had a lawn and there were, how many, there were five rooms in the house and I had my own room and my parents had their room and there was a room next door to my room where my cousin Jack used to quite often come and stay. In fact he stayed with us for a year on one occasion. And then there was the study and then there was the dining room and then there was the living room. No, it was quite a… had quite a nice big lawn. My mother was very keen on gardening. I didn’t give a hoot about it. Yes, when you in your mind’s eye picture your mother and your father in the house or in the garden, what do you picture them doing? Where did they tend to be and doing what? My mother on the telephone [laughs] and my father sitting and drinking his whisky outside on the thing, and when I was about thirteen, fourteen, I used to have to bring my father his whisky when he came home. And I think when I was about fifteen I started drinking with him. They were quite social and my father, because of his lack of education, was acutely self-conscious if people argued with him or felt he was rejected in any sort of way. And my mother was acutely conscious of people doing anything that was non-Jewish. So, for example, her elder brother married a non-Jewish woman, Molly, who I loved actually, and she complained bitterly that – they did wait until the mother had died, my mother’s mother had died – and my mother complained that they didn’t wait long enough until the elder sister had died. I thought that was just ludicrous. And my mother was very involved in Jewish affairs, yes, charities and things like that. And my father played golf and my mother played bowls, so they were quite sporty in that sort of way, yes. Lewis Wolpert Page 4 C1672/06 Track 1 [07:30] You just said that Molly was someone that you loved… Oh no, sorry, I’m sorry, I liked – not particularly – I liked my mother’s family. There were five brothers and three sisters and the brothers and the sisters – and Molly was the non-Jew [laughs] who my Uncle Sappy married and I liked her very much, they were fine. But the one I liked most, the one I got on best with was my Uncle Mosie’s wife, that was Helen Suzman – have you ever heard of Helen Suzman? No, I haven’t, I should have done perhaps? She was, no, Helen was amazing. Helen was very anti-apartheid in South Africa and she at one stage became the only Member of Parliament – she was in Parliament – who opposed the government, you know, the government system, she was very famous.