61 Move to constitute a |3 MAY 1966] Houses to examine the 62 Joint Committee of both estimates of the Rajya Saaha (vii) Twenty-seventh Report on Planning, NOMINATIONS TO THE BUSINESS Management and Administration of ADVISORY COMMITTEE K:rala State Government Companies.* MR. CHAIRMAN : Under sub-rule (1) of (viii) Thirty-first Report on the Alloy rule 30 of the Rules of Procedure and Steels Project and Coal Washeries Conduct of Business in the Rajya Sabha, I hereby nominate the following Members to be Project of Hindustan Steel Limited. Members of the Business Advisory Committee :— REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE (1965-66) 1. Shrimati Violet Alva 2. Shri R. S. Doogar SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA (Uttar Pradesh) : 3. Shri I. K. Gujral Sir, I beg to lay on the Table a copy of the 4. Shri P. K. Kumaran Forty-eighth Report of the Public Accounts 5. Shrimati Mohinder Kaur Committee (1965-66) on the Appropriation 6. Shri Dahyabhai V. Patel Accounts (Defence Services), 1963-64 and 7. Shri Mulka Govinda Reddy Audit Report (Defence Services), 1965. H. Shri Rajendra Pratap Sinha 9. Sir, I also beg to lay on the Table a copy of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. the Forty-ninth Report of the Public Accounts Committee (1965-66) on the Audit Report on the Accounts of the Khadi and Village ALLOTMENT OF TIME FOR CONSI- Industries Com: for the year 1963-64. DERATION OF GOVERNMENT RESO- LUTION REGARDING KERALA PROCLAMATION MR. CHAIRMAN : I have to inform Members that I have allotted one day for the consideration of Government Resolution regarding the Proclamation issued under article 356 of the Constitution in relation to the State of Kerala. SHRI M. P. BHARGAVA (Uttar Pradesh) : REFERENCE TO REPORTED I beg to lay on the Table a copy of the Fifty- MOVE TO CONSTITUTE A JOINT first Report of the Public Accounts COMMITTEE OF BOTH HOUSES TO Committee (1965-66) on paras 7 and 8 cf EXAMINE THE ESTIMATES OF THE Audit Report (Defence Services), 1965. RAJYA SABHA SHRI RAJENDRA PRATAP SINHA NOMINATIONS TO THE PANEL OF ax) : Sir, can I make a submission ? VICE-CHAIRMEN I was very distressed to see a press report that a proposal has been mooted to constitute MR. CHAIRMAN : Under sub-rule (1) of a Joint Committee of boh the Houses of rule 8 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct Parliament to examine the estimates of the of Business in the Rajya Sabha, I hereby Rajya Sabha. Sir, I am distressed because I nominate the following Members to the panel feel that such a question may lead to endless of Vice-Chairmen :— controversy and may adversely affect the 1. Shri Akbar AH Khan good relations, the cordial and harmonious 2. Shri M. P. Bhargava relations, that subsist between the two Houses 3. Shri M. Ruthnaswamy of Parliament. It is of paramount importance 4. Shrimati Tara Ramchandra Sathe. that for the smooth functioning of our parlia- mentary system, there should be perfect mutual understanding, harmony and goodwill between the two Houses and this is 63 Move to constitute a [RAJYA SABHA] Houses to examine the 64 Joint Committee of both estimates of the Rajya Sabha [Shri Rajendra Pratap Sinha] of the estimates or accounts of either House or its Secretariat would naturally bring into accepted and recognised not only in our controversy the Presiding Officers of the two* Parliament, but wherever there is a bicameral Houses and may detract their unquestioned legislature. position of authority over the respective It may be useful for us to understand and Houses over which they preside. Here I would appreciate the constitutional position in this like to pay my tribute to the Speaker of the respect and also the well-established Lok Sabha who has consistently upheld this conventions that subsist in these matters. Sir, well-established convention of not permitting there appears to be some misunderstanding in a debate or the raising of a discussion with the minds of some people because the House regard to the demands of either House or its of Lords do not discuss the budget estimates Secretariat on the floor of the House. The of that country but in India, Sir, the position is Speaker, I am glad, has further clarified and quite different. We have a written strengthened this well-established convention. Constitution and the Constitution very clearly He was pleased to observe in connection with defines th; powers, privileges and the the demand to discuss the estimates of the functions of each House. I shall invite your Rapya Sabha : attention to article 112 of the Constitution "We cannot discuss and criticise what which clearly lays down that a statement of they spend and how they spend—we cannot estimated receipts and expenditure of the do it." Government are to be laid before both the Houses of Parliament, the Lok Sabha and the However, we understand, Sir, that the Rajya Sabha, unlike the practice in the United Speaker of the Lok Sabha has constituted a Kingdom where the estimates of expenditure small Committee to look into the accounts and of that country are not laid before the House the estimates of the Lok Sabha and report to of Lords. the Speaker of the Lok Sabha before the estimates are certified by the Speaker. SHRI AWADHESHWAR PRASAD Subsequently, a suggestion has been SINHA (Bihar) : There is a world of mooted—of course not in this House—that difference between the House of Lords and the accounts and estimates of the Rajya Sabha this House. should also undergo a similar scrutiny. SHRI RAJENDRA PRATAP SINHA : Sir, you may recall that you had ioSor-mal Now, we have a right along with the Lok consultations with the leaders of the various Sabha to discuss the estimates of the Houses groups and some other Members in your of Parliament along with the other estimates Chamber last year and I understand that it was of the Government of India during the various the consensus of that informal meeting firstly stages of the passage of the Budget in both that there was no demand for such a scrutiny tthe Houses. But there is aricle 113 of the in this House. Even if it was felt that such a Constitution which gives a special privilege to scrutiny should be undergone the consensus of the Lok Sabha under which they can assent, that informal meeting, I understand, was that a refuse to assent or reduce any demand other Committee should be constituted by you com- than the charged items. Mr. Chairman, that is posed entirely of Members of the Rajya Sabha the only difference that exists between the to look into the estimates of the Rajya Sabha powers of the two Houses. This privilege and its Secretariat. Alternatively, if that was which is given to the House of the People not found acceptable, the consensus of this under article 113 is not available to us but we informal meeting was that a Joint Committee have every right to discuss the various may be constituted —that was the consensus; demands including the demands of both I am merely stating the facts as they are and I Houses of Parliament. am not expressing my opinion—composed of Members of both the Lok Sabha and the Rajya However, in view of the well-established Sabha and this Joint Committee was to look convention and pratice, the House do not into and scrutinise the estimates of both the discuss the estimates or accounts of the Houses, the Lok Sabha and the Houses and their Secretariats. The convention has grown up because any discussion 65 Move to constitute a [3 MAV 1966] Houses to examine the 66 Joint Committee of both estimates of the Rajya Sabha Rajya Sabha, and not only of Rajya the ofticers of the other House, the usual Sabha. mode of proceeding is to examine into the fact and then lay a stciement of that Now, may I submit in all humility to this evidence before the House of which the House, and also to the I.ok Sabha, that it is not person complained of is a Member or in keeping with our best traditions to subject Officer.". the examination of the accounts of the Rajya Sabha only to a Joint Committee ? With your The Committee of Privileges of the Rajya permission, Sir, I would like to draw your Sabha and the Lok Sabha sitting jointly had an attention to the following passage from May's occasion in the case of Shri N. C. Chatterjee Parliamentary Practice which would show to consider the procedure thut should be how one House of Parliament in the United followed in cases where a breach of privilege Kingdom acts when it has to deal with a or contempt of House is alleged to have been matter which concerns the other House. This committed by the Member of the other House. is in respect of returns relating to the other After considering the practice followed in this House : behalf in the Parliament in the U.K., the Com- mittees of Privileges evolved a procedure "If one House desires any return relating somewhat similar to the procedure followed in to the business or proceedings of the other, the U.K. Particular attention may be invited to neither courtesy nor custom allows such a the following observations made in the Report return to be odered; but an arrangement is of the Committees, which held joint sittings : generally made, by which the return is moved for in the other House; and after it "The Committees are anxious that has been presented, a message is sent to whatever procedure is decided upon, it request that it may be communicated.