House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee Pension Credit Third Report of Session 2004-05 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 23 February 2005 HC 43-II [Incorporating HC 1219 i and HC 1219 ii , Session 2003-04] Published on 9 March 2005 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £21.50 The Work and Pensions Committee The Work and Pensions Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Work and Pensions and its associated public bodies. Current membership Sir Archy Kirkwood MP (Liberal Democrat, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Chairman) Ms Vera Baird MP (Labour, Redcar) Miss Anne Begg MP (Labour, Aberdeen South) Ms Karen Buck MP (Labour, Regent’s Park and Kensington North) Mr Andrew Dismore MP (Labour, Hendon) Mr Paul Goodman MP (Conservative, Wycombe) Mr David Hamilton MP (Labour, Midlothian) Mrs Joan Humble MP (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood) Rob Marris MP (Labour, Wolverhampton South West) Andrew Selous MP (Conservative, South West Bedfordshire) Mr Nigel Waterson MP (Conservative, Eastbourne) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/work_and_pensions_comm ittee.cfm. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Philip Moon (Clerk), Gosia McBride (Second Clerk),Maxine Hill and Djuna Thurley, (Committee Specialists), Louise Whitley (Committee Assistant), Emily Lumb (Committee Secretary), John Kittle (Senior Office Clerk). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Work and Pensions Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5833; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses Wednesday 3 November 2004 Mr Alan Barton and Mr Steve Johnson, Citizens Advice and Ms Lindsay Isaacs, Citizens Advice Scotland Ev 1 Dr Katherine Rake, Fawcett Society and Ms Amanda Ariss, Equal Opportunities Commission Ev 10 Wednesday 10 November 2004 Mr Richard Wilson, Help the Aged, Ms Sally West, Age Concern Ev 18 Mr Jo Harris, Mr Tony Lynes and Mr Neil Duncan-Jordan, National Pensioners Convention Ev 29 Wednesday 24 November 2004 Mr Adair Turner (Chair), Ms Jeannie Drake and Professor John Hills, Pensions Commission Ev 34 Ms Alison O’Connell and Mr Chris Curry, Pensions Policy Institute Ev 43 Thursday 2 December 2004 Ms Carol Habberfield, Mr Terry Patterson, Local Government Association, Mr Jim Dickson, Lancashire County Council Welfare Rights Service and Ms Janet Gurney, Leicestershire County Council Welfare Rights Service Ev 48 Mr Paul Vizard, Pensions Service Trade Union Side, Mr Keith Wylie, Public and Commercial Services Union Ev 62 Thursday 2 December 2004 Mr Malcolm Wicks MP, Minister of State for Pensions and Alexis Cleveland, Chief Executive of the Pensions Service Ev 71 Written Evidence 1 DWP Ev 88 2 DWP further information Ev 106 3 DWP further information Ev 113 4 DWP further information Ev 114 5 DWP further information Ev 115 6 DWP further information Ev 115 7 DWP further information Ev 116 8 DWP further information Ev 125 9 DWP further information Ev 126 10 Local Government Association Ev 129 11 Standard Life Ev 132 12 National Pensioners Convention Ev 132 13 Civil Service Pensioners’ Allicance Ev 137 14 Leicestershire County Council Ev 139 15 Supplementary, Leicestershire County Council Ev 141 16 Age Concern Ev 142 17 Lancashire County Council Ev 156 18 Supplementary, Lancashire County Council Ev 161 19 Equal Opportunities Commission Ev 161 20 Supplementary, Equal Opportunities Commission Ev 165 21 Help the Aged Ev 166 22 Citizens Advice Scotland Ev 182 23 Citizens Advice Ev 190 24 Supplementary, Citizens Advice Ev 202 25 Fawcett Society Ev 203 26 Supplementary, Fawcett Society Ev 204 27 B& CE Ev 205 28 Public and Commercial Services Union Ev 207 29 Supplementary, Public and Commercial Services Union Ev 208 30 Pensions Commission Ev 209 31 Child Poverty Action Group Ev 224 32 Neil Bateman and Company Ev 226 33 Visit Notes Ev 230 Work and Pensions Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Work and Pensions Committee on Wednesday 3 November 2004 Members present: Sir Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair Vera Baird Mrs Joan Humble Miss Anne Begg Rob Marris Mr Andrew Dismore Mr Nigel Waterson Mr Paul Goodman Witnesses: Mr Alan Barton and Mr Steve Johnson, Citizens Advice, and Ms Lindsay Isaacs, Citizens Advice Scotland, examined. Q1 Chairman: This is the first oral session on our Credit when they qualify for a Disability Benefit, new inquiry into Pension Credit. This morning we because that may well qualify them for a premium in welcome to the first part of the oral evidence session their Pension Credit. It is widely acknowledged that Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland. We take-up of Attendance Allowance is very low. The have Lindsay Isaacs from Citizens Advice Scotland last figures the Department for Work and Pensions and Steve Johnson and Alan Barton who are both published a little while ago were about half. from Citizens Advice in other parts of the United Certainly CAB visiting staV, who go and take claims Kingdom. You are very welcome, and thank you from people in their own homes, are still very busy very much for the sets of written evidence, which we and still getting lots of people on Attendance have read to our advantage. I do not think that there Allowance, and those who would then qualify for a is any real purpose in your explaining what you do, premium would then qualify for £40-odd extra of because I think we know. Indeed, we depend a lot in Pension Credit. We will therefore be very interested our constituency lives on what you do, so I think to hear what the analysis from the DWP is, because that we are all fairly familiar with what you are it is a bit of a surprise to us. doing. If you do not mind, we will go straight into the questioning. We have four or five areas which we Q2 Chairman: I should perhaps say that we still have would like to cover in an hour, and it is not a long not had the corrected transcript. It may be that he time. Let me set the ball rolling myself by asking a inadvertently left us with the impression and he did question. You may have picked up that we had an not mean to say that. He still has an opportunity to interesting exchange with the new Secretary of State, refine that piece of evidence which he gave us. Alan Johnson, a fortnight ago. He took a refreshing Lindsay—I will not do this all the time, I promise view of a number of things, but one of the things you—is it diVerent in Scotland? Please chip in if which caught my attention was that he seemed to there is anything specific you want to add. imply that, when he took a first look at the brief Ms Isaacs: I will, but I think that our experience when he took over the department, he came to the probably reflects what Alan said. We still get a lot of conclusion that 100% of the people who were in the case evidence from bureaux which indicate that lowest levels of household income were being clients are not in receipt of the Guarantee Credit. addressed by Pension Credit as it is currently They do not know that they are entitled to it, and the constructed, rather suggesting that it was the small bureaux help them go through the application amounts, the weekly amounts, that were left to be process. dealt with as a take-up issue. If my understanding of Mr Barton: There is one other point, Chairman. One what he said is accurate, do you have any sense of group where I should imagine the take-up is pretty whether that reflects your experience, or is it based near 100% is people who have a very low state on anything that you are aware of in terms of retirement pension, because they simply will not research or data? It would really help the Committee have enough to live on; so they will be getting the if we could have your opinion on that view which the Guarantee Credit. I would expect that group to be new Secretary of State seemed to take. 100%. Mr Barton: We had spotted that he had said this and Chairman: He may have had that in mind when he were quite surprised that this was the conclusion that said that. That is very helpful. DWP had come to, because the overall figures show that take-up, at the end of August, was still less than Q3 Vera Baird: Clearly you must be right in what 70%. It is very common for pensioners to feel that you have last said: that people with very low they have to live on their state retirement pension. So pensions are more likely to be claiming. However, at bureaux are still regularly seeing people who would the moment Alan Johnson’s analysis—and it is qualify for some Guarantee Credit for that reason. uncorrected yet—leads him to say that two key Also, many people come into eligibility for Pension things need to be done to improve take-up.