ROINN COSANTA. BUREAU OF MILITARY HISTORY, 1913-21. STATEMENT BY WITNESS. 1670 DOCUMENT NO. W.S. Witness Captain Seumas Kavanagh 12 Achill Road Drumcondra, Dublin Identity. Captain, H/Company, 1st Dublin Brigade, Irish Volunteers and I.R.A. Subject. Fianna Eireann, 1909-May 1916 Conditions, If any, Stipulated By Witness. Nil S.935 File No Form STATEMENT BY CAPTAIN SEAMUS KAVANAGH, 12, Achill Road, Drumcondra, Dublin. I was born in Liverpool, England, in October, 1897, my rather and mother having emigrated from County Wicklow to Liverpool. As my parents returned to Dublin when I was about two years old, I do not remember any of my associations in connection with Liverpool. I went to school to Marymount National School, Harolds Cross, National School, Rathmines, and the Christian Brothers, Synge St. I was thirteen years of age when I left school. My mother died in 1908 when I was about twelve years old, and I left home about twelve months after she died, and went to stay with relatives. My first employer was Joseph McGuinness of Longford, who had a drapery business at Nos. 68 and 69 Camden St., Dublin. I got my job with him by using my elder brother's certificate which showed me as being fourteen and a birth half years of age. This was in the year 1909. Joe McGuinness was subsequently elected to the first Dáil as one of the Sinn Féin T.D.s, when he represented Éireann Westmeath and Longford. My first association with the national movement came about in the following manner. A lady customer entered the shop one day, and purchased a shape and ribbons, for the purpose of making a lady's hat. She spoke with, as I thought, an English accent, and it was the first time I had ever seen a lady smoking a cigarette. I was employed as apprentice dash-boy, and the milliner, who was serving her, called me to take the cash for the purchase to the cash office. 2. When I came back with the change, the lady addressed me. boy'", she asked, "What is your name?". I told "Little her it was James Kavanagh, and she asked me would not "Seamus" sound nicer. I said I thought it would. I thought to myself that it was peculiar for a person with an English accent to be asking me a question like that, at that She said, "Will you promise me that you will time. never answer to any other name but Seamus in future?". She followed that by asking me did I ever hear of Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, the Manchester Martyrs and '98. I said "I did". She asked would I not like to be like one of them. I said, "I think I would". Then she asked me would I join the Irish National Boy Scouts movement, and I said, "No, because I think it is just like the Baden Powell scouts". I refused to believe her. She, with her English accent, was asking me to join the Baden Powell scouts. I thought I was being trapped into joining So she argued the point with me. At the something. I was very confused, but she persisted that I was time mixing up the National Boy Scouts, of whom I had never heard before, with the Baden Powell scouts. She informed me then that the National Boy Scouts were just being formed, and that the reason for their formation was to counteract the influence of the Baden Powell scouts which existed mainly as an adjunct of British imperialism in the country. At this stage, Mr. McGuinness came along, not knowing, as he told me afterwards, what was wrong and what we were discussing. The lady explained to Mr. McGuinness about the Boy Scout Movement being formed in No. 34 Camden National Street, and she asked him to promise that he would send me over to the first meeting. No. 34 was just across the street. He agreed. After she had left the shop, I learned that she was the Countess Markievicz. 3. Up to then, I had never heard of the Countess Markievicz, and it struck me as peculiar that a titled lady should interest herself in a matter of this nature. However, I attended a meeting that night in No. 34 Camden.. Street. There was a number of persons present that night, including Con Colbert, Eamon Martin, Pádraig 6 Riain, the four Fitzgeralds of Pearse Street (James, Leo, Theo, and Willie), Percy and Frank Reynolds, the Countess Markievicz, Mícheál Lonergan (whom we afterwards called The Major), Harry and Leo Walpole, who lived in Ranelagh, a lad named Finlay, Brian Callender of Johnson's Court, Barney Murphy, who worked afterwards in the Abbey Theatre. They were young men in their early twentys. Also present that night were Miss Helena Molony, McGarry, Bulmer Hobson, and Peadar Kearney (author of Seán "The Soldiers' Song", the present-day National Anthem.) That is as many as I can recollect at the moment. They were all leading lights at that time. The premises were lit by gas and oil lamps. Bulmer Hobson gave a lecture on Wolfe Tone. I remember one thing he said that struck me rather forcibly, and that was about Tone being a Presbyterian and a person of standing in the country, yet he became a member of the United Irishmen, took the oath of allegiance to the Republic, and was prepared to break away from everything for the sake of his country. It impressed me very much. Seán McGarry also spoke in somewhat similar terms. When the meeting was over, our names were taken by Colbert and Pádraig Ó Riain, the two people who seemed Con to be most active on that particular night. We were then 4. and I went home. I felt very pleased with dismissed myself for having attended the meeting. attend at A night or two later, we were ordered to 34 Camden Street for drill and general instruction in scouting. Before the dismissal, Con Colbert gave us a on the old Fianna, on the achievements carried out lecture members - the tests and examinations they had to by the pass - before being admitted into the Fianna. I found all those things very inspiring. It helped to make me very enthusiastic about the whole movement. At the end of the lecture, there was an appeal made all of us to bring in every boy we possibly could, to the result that in a very short time, upwards of with fifty and sixty boys had joined, ranging in age from ten to sixteen years of age. From that time until the end of1920, we attended, on an average, twice weekly at 34 Camden Street where we instruction, and attended lectures on Irish received history. About this time, Lain and Barney Mellowes were initiated into the National Boy Scout Movement of Ireland, as it was then known. Later, it was to be known as Fianna na hÉireann. About 1910, we were divided into squads and sections. I was given control of a squad comprising about eight boys. There were two squads in the section, controlled by a commander. My section commander was James Cashen, section Who lived in High Street or Nicholas Street and was a tailor's apprentice. I believe at the present time he is an artist. 5. There was a bookshop, owned by a firm called Ponsonby's, in Grafton Street where British army manuals of every could be purchased. I spent most of my spare description and time buying and studying these books. We were cash encouraged to do this by our officers. It was either in this or the following year that another branch of the Irish National Boy Scouts was formed at No. 10 Beresford Place, which was the headquarters of the Transport Workers' Union. This branch of the Irish National Boy Scouts was, as far as I can remember, officered by Paddy Houlihan, Garry Houlihan, Eamonn who, I think, had been in the British Army. Creegan, They met there regularly each week, and from then on the movement commenced to spread. A third branch was formed in a house in St. Joseph's Avenue, Drumcondra. The organiser of that branch was Seamus McGowan of the Irish Transport Union, who had been attached to the North Dock Sluagh. The fourth branch, as far as I can recollect, was organised at Dolphin's Barn, the officer being, as far as I know, Bob Holland, who had two or three brothers and had been attached to the Camden Street Sluagh. Another name that comes to my mind is that of Paddy Daly, subsequently a well known Volunteer and Army officer, was a member of the North Dock Sluagh, and later who formed a branch in Fairview. When the scouts had been in existence for about two years, the section commanders were organised into a Committee which had for its object the training and administration of the Sluaghte. 6. Up to this, we had been attending meetings in our ordinary workaday clothes, and it was now decided that we should wear uniform. The question of a particuiar type - uniform was considered. It was agreed by Céad Sluagh Camden Street branch - that kilts, jerseys, belts, haversacks, the Owen Roe type of hat, and black. shoes and stockings would be the, uniform approved and recommended for wear by all members of the organisation. Each member was required to purchase his own uniform which could be obtained from, among other places, Whelan's Ormond Quay, Lalors of Fownes Street, and Fannin's of of Mary Street.