A P P E A R A N C E S THE SOLE MEMBER: Mr. Justice Michael Moriarty FOR TRIBUNAL: Mr. John Coughlan, SC Mr. Jerry Healy, SC Ms. Jacqueline O'Brien, BL Instructed by: Michael Heneghan Solicitor FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE & NATURAL RESOURCES: Mr. Richard Nesbitt, SC Mr. Diarmuid Rossa Phelan, BL Instructed by Matthew Shaw Chief State Solicitors Office FOR DENIS O'BRIEN: Mr. Eoin McGonigal, SC Mr. Gerry Kelly, SC Mr. James O'Callaghan, BL Instructed by: Owen O'Connell William Fry Solicitors FOR TELENOR: Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, SC Ms. Blathna Ruane, BL Instructed by: Kilroy Solicitors FOR MICHAEL LOWRY: Mr. Rossa Fanning, BL Kelly Noone & Co., Solicitors FOR FINE GAEL: Mr. Anthony O'Connor, BL Instructed by: Kevin O'Higgins & Co., Solicitors. OFFICIAL REPORTER: Mary McKeon SCOPIST: Viola Doyle I N D E X Witness: Examination: Question No.: Denis O'Connor Mr. Healy 1 - 9 Sean Barrett Ms. O'Brien 10 - 34 Mr. Fitzsimons 35 - 39 Daniel Egan Ms. O'Brien 40 - 181 Mr. Fitzsimons 182 - 188 Mr. O'Connor 189 - 196 Mr. Fanning 197 - 198 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED AS FOLLOWS ON WEDNESDAY, THE 15TH OF OCTOBER, 2003, AT 11AM: MR. HEALY: The short delay this morning, Sir, was occasioned by the fact that the Tribunal legal team had discussions with the other legal teams, explaining the up to date position with regard to the Tribunal's contacts with Mr. Michael Andersen and his lawyers. And it now appears, as a result of a meeting as a result of a telephone conference call this morning with Mr. Andersen's lawyers, that it may be possible to arrange for Mr. Andersen to give evidence, admittedly it will be in the new year, and almost certainly after all the other evidence has been heard, but, nevertheless, it will be preferable to have his evidence, than not to have it, of course. At the moment, as has already been indicated in evidence, Mr. Andersen is involved in an arbitration with AMI, the company of which he was formerly effectively the Chief Executive or Managing Director, and that arbitration is expected to be concluded sometime in the new year. The extent to which Mr. Andersen is precluded from giving evidence at the moment is not exactly clear, but the Tribunal is hoping to have a meeting with his lawyers, from which it will be clear, I expect, sometime later this week or early next week, that he will be able to come and he will be able to give evidence within a reasonable timescale, and that might, therefore, obviate any need for any application, subject, obviously, to what any of the other interested or affected parties think. And I think if there is any if there are more developments in relation to this matter, then obviously they'll be mentioned in the course of Tribunal proceedings early next week. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. HEALY: Mr. Denis O'Connor, please. MR. FANNING: I wonder, Sir, before Mr. O'Connor gives evidence, certainly for the record that I appear for Mr. O'Connor, instructed by Kelly Noone Solicitors. My understanding is that on a previous occasion my colleague, Mr. O'Donnell, made an application for limited representation for Mr. O'Connor. My understanding is that was either declined or not ruled upon at that stage. As on previous occasions that Mr. O'Connor has given evidence, it's been thought that his evidence was ancillary or subsidiary to his client, he is an accountant by profession, his client being my other client, Mr. Lowry. It seems to me the evidence he is being asked to give this morning is evidence independent of Mr. Lowry, and is evidence that bears upon his own recollection of events in a primary capacity, and in those circumstances, I am, in fact, renewing an application for limited representation this morning on his behalf. CHAIRMAN: Well, I'll note that application, Mr. Fanning, but it does seem to me that the status quo is not going to prejudice anybody. I can't see any particular point in, for the very limited and piecemeal instance of evidence this morning, in making a separate limited Representation Order. So I will simply protract the present situation whereby Mr. Lowry's Representation Order extends to Mr. O'Connor's evidence, as it has on the couple of occasions he has testified in the past. Thank you. DENIS O'CONNOR, PREVIOUSLY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. HEALY: Q. MR. HEALY: As you know, this morning's evidence is simply related to one event or episode in 1995, of which you can give some evidence, and on which you have given the Tribunal some assistance in the form of a Memorandum of Intended Evidence. And I think you have a copy of that memorandum? A. That's correct. Q. You have given evidence before, so very briefly I'll go through the memorandum, and I don't think very much arises out of it. What you were being asked about was the aftermath of the All Ireland Final of 1995, when according to information made available to the Tribunal, it would appear that there was a meeting between Mr. Michael Lowry and Mr. Denis O'Brien. That occurred in, according to the information made available to the Tribunal, in a public house in Leeson Street. You were, at the time, I think you had you met Mr. Lowry, and it's in that context, and in the context of your dealings with Mr. Lowry that day, that you were asked to give your version of what you could recall of meeting Mr. Lowry in a public house in Leeson Street after the All-Ireland Final, isn't that right? A. That's correct. Q. You say: "I have difficulty in recalling the events surrounding the All-Ireland Final of 1995, due to the time which has elapsed. It is my recollection that I went to same with my wife, and that we would have had tickets in the Cusack Stand. I further believe that I would have got the tickets from either Michael Lowry or my late father. On balance, probably from my late father. "In the course of probably a telephone conversation, Michael Lowry would have asked if my wife and myself were interested in meeting for a drink after the match. I agreed, and he said to go to Hourican's in Leeson Street. Michael Lowry would have given me directions, as I had never been there previously, and indeed, would not have been clear as to the exact location until actually arriving there. "I believe that I would have driven to the match in my own car and parked in the Fairview area. I would have certainly left Croke Park after the match, but cannot recall whether I waited for the presentation. I may have because Dublin won. If I did, I would have left Croke Park at approximately 5:20pm. I would have certainly walked to my car and driven over the East Link, through Ringsend, down Leeson Street and probably parked in Earlsfort Terrace. If I stayed for the presentation I probably arrived at Hourican's at about 6:15, 6:20pm. If not, I probably arrived at around 5:55 or 6 p.m.. "I recall there were people present who had the appearance of being at the match. The pub was full, with standing room only. Michael Lowry was not there when we arrived, and we stood at the bar to the left inside the door. I can recall the late Sean Murray being there when I arrived, but I did not engage in chat with anyone until Michael Lowry arrived. When Michael Lowry arrived he joined us for a drink, and I can recall discussing the match with him, being introduced to Sean Barrett by him" that's Mr. Sean Barrett TD, then a Minister, isn't that right? A. Correct. Q. "I cannot recall when Michael Lowry arrived, but it could easily have been any time up to 7/7:15pm. My wife and myself would probably have left sometime between 7:30pm and 8:30pm. I did not see Denis O'Brien, and have no recollection of Michael Lowry" sorry, I think I must have misread something a moment ago. A. 8:00pm Q. "My wife and myself would probably have left somewhere between 7:30pm and 8pm. I did not see Denis O'Brien, and have no recollection of Michael Lowry leaving Hourican's, although he circulated in Hourican's and left our group. When leaving, I would certainly have made Michael Lowry aware of my exit. Until the issue arose I was not aware that Michael Lowry attended a VIP reception." I think you're aware that Mr. Michael Lowry himself has provided the Tribunal with a Memorandum of Intended Evidence, in which he says that he went to Hourican's licensed premises, that Mr. O'Brien arrived that the premises were extremely crowded, and that he and Mr. O'Brien agreed to go across the road to Hartigan's. You are aware of that? A. I am aware of that. Q. Your recollection is that you didn't see Mr. O'Brien in the public house? A. Correct. I don't even know if I would have known Mr. O'Brien at the time, to be frank with you, you know. Q. And I suppose to be fair, you have also said that Mr. Lowry, when he joined you, he had a drink with you, you discussed the match.