Wednesday Volume 564 19 June 2013 No. 20 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 19 June 2013 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 873 19 JUNE 2013 874 extraordinarily valuable work they do to get people House of Commons ready for work and into work. We want to make the programme work. Wednesday 19 June 2013 Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Surely The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock the Minister knows that New Philanthropy Capital has advised the Government not to repeat the mistakes of the Work programme. What lessons will he learn so that PRAYERS those mistakes are not repeated and so that third sector organisations and charities that want to help unemployed [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] people are encouraged to do so? Mr Hurd: I do not necessarily recognise that mistakes Oral Answers to Questions have been made. Payment-by-results is a tough and challenging regime, but each exercise will be different and the process will evolve. It is a better regime than CABINET OFFICE paying for failure and mediocrity, which is what the Labour Government did. The next test is the probation reforms. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the detail of The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— what the Ministry of Justice has produced, he will see Work Programme that lessons have been learned on having more contracts, paying much more attention to how the supply chain is 1. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): managed and investing in capacity building in the voluntary What recent discussions he has had with civil society sector so that it can do more. groups on the effect of the Work programme on their organisations. [160374] Anti-fraud Activities The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): I have regular discussions with organisations 2. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): that deliver the Work programme. I recognise that they What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of operate in a challenging environment, but I salute their counter-fraud activities across Government. [160375] collective early success in getting more than 200,000 long-term unemployed people into work, as I am sure The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster does the hon. Lady. General (Mr Francis Maude): The National Fraud Authority estimates that the public purse loses more than £20 Sandra Osborne: I thank the Minister for that response. billion a year to fraud. That figure has been far too high A recent report by the Work and Pensions Committee for far too long. Last year, the Departments that engaged on the Work programme found that many voluntary with the cross-Government taskforce that I chair saved sector organisations that are listed as sub-contractors an estimated £5.9 billion. However, we know that there do not consider themselves to be involved at all, leading is much more to do. to suspicions that specialist organisations are being used as “bid candy”, rather than to deliver services. What will the Minister do to ensure that such charities Stephen Barclay: I pay tribute to the Minister for the are treated fairly? billions of pounds of cross-departmental savings that he has achieved. In targeting that £20 billion, I urge him Mr Hurd: It is for the Department for Work and to look again at the risk-averse legal advice in Whitehall Pensions to respond to that report; my role is to ensure that is stopping data-sharing between the public and that the relevant Minister understands the concerns of private sectors, because fraudsters who commit fraud the voluntary sector. We should recognise that more against the private sector often do so against the public than 350 voluntary sector organisations in the supply purse. chain are doing incredibly valuable work to get long-term unemployed people back into work. My other role is to Mr Maude: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those ensure that we learn the lessons from that programme in remarks, for his interest in this area and, more generally, forthcoming payment-by-results programmes, not least for the brilliant forensic work he does on the Public in the transforming rehabilitation and probation Accounts Committee to protect the taxpayer’s interest. programme. He is right about the legal advice that is often given in this complex area of law, which is a mishmash of Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): common law and statutory provisions. There are many Has my hon. Friend noted the figures from the Department opportunities to share data, which would protect privacy for Work and Pensions that show that voluntary and but promote the public interest by saving money. We community based organisations, such as Whitwick need to look at that area and have a rather more open Community Enterprises in my constituency, make up approach. the largest proportion of workplace providers under the Work programme at 47%? Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Will the Minister Mr Hurd: My hon. Friend is right that almost 50% of also consider the proposal to establish a register of the supply chain is in the voluntary sector. We all know private sector companies in receipt of public sector from our experience of such organisations what contracts that have been involved in fraud? 875 Oral Answers19 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 876 Mr Maude: I will certainly consider that. We need to Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): get much better at sharing information about fraud and The Justice Secretary is a man who appears to be in attempted fraud both within the private sector and something of a hurry. The Minister may be aware of between the public and private sectors. That has been growing concern among small voluntary organisations done far too little, but we are getting better at it. There that provide services to ex-offenders that under the is still much to do and I am grateful for the right hon. Justice Secretary’s plans their work will be undermined Gentleman’s thoughts. as large contracts are given to a small number of private providers. What reassurance can be given to those important Public Sector Contracts small charities? 3. Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): What Miss Smith: The right hon. Gentleman may wish to steps he is taking to ensure that charities are able to bid direct that question to the Justice Secretary himself, but for public sector contracts. [160376] the Parliamentary Secretary has had many discussions with Members across Government about opportunities for the voluntary sector, and we are passionate about The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss getting that right. Chloe Smith): It is Government policy to dismantle the barriers facing small companies, charities and voluntary organisations to ensure they can compete for contracts Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): In strongly on a level playing field. We have taken a number of applauding my hon. Friend’s work in this area, may I significant steps specifically to support charities and suggest that it needs to go beyond the procurement social enterprises to bid for and win public sector contracts, process itself? The other danger is public sector bodies— such as the implementation of the Public Services (Social both locally and centrally—taking on employees to do Value) Act 2012, a community right to challenge, and work that could be done more effectively by voluntary reforms of procurement processes that make them more sector organisations. open and fair to charities. Miss Smith: My hon. Friend makes a good point Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The Foundation about the value for money that the state would seek to for Social Improvement today reports: achieve at all levels. Alongside that, our reforms include “Looking to the future of the commissioning process, it is clear measures to build the capability of the third sector, that the current situation is not sustainable. Only around one which I am sure we would all want to see strongly quarter of respondents indicated that they felt they could carry succeed. on bidding for—and carrying out—local authority contracts over the next 5 years.” Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Is it clear that not Is it true that the Government’s plan to break open only have the Government failed to deliver more public public services is merely benefiting a handful of large sector contracts to charities, but after three years in companies that use charities as “bid candy”, as my hon. office the big society project has now become a shrivelled Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock society, except in one area—charitable activity and (Sandra Osborne) said, and as the report concludes? supporting people whom the hon. Lady’s Government have driven into poverty? More than 13 million people Miss Smith: As the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet are now in poverty, two thirds of whom are in work. Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) made clear in an earlier answer, many charitable organisations are already taking part Miss Smith: I thought the hon. Gentleman would and there are opportunities for more. What I take from welcome the notion that more charities are getting the hon. Gentleman’s question is his willingness to work involved and more people are volunteering. Surely that with me and others who care about making procurement is a good thing. better throughout the whole public sector, and encouraging local authorities to do their bit alongside the reforms we Jon Trickett: It is a sad thing.