1 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEWOF: DON MCGAHN Friday,June 4,2021 Washington,D.C. The interviewin the above matter was held in Room2141, Rayburn House Office Building,commencingat 10:05 a.m. 2 Present: RepresentativesNadler, Jackson Lee,Johnson of Georgia, Raskin, Scanlon, Dean, Jordan, and Gaetz. Staff Present: Perry Apelbaum,Staff Directorand Chief Counsel; Aaron Hiller, Deputy Chief Counsel; Arya Hariharan,Chief Oversight Counsel; Sarah Istel,Oversight Counsel; PriyankaMara, ProfessionalStaff Member; Cierra Fontenot,Chief Clerk; Kayla Hamedi,Deputy PressSecretary; Will Emmons,ProfessionalStaff Member; Anthony Valdez, ProfessionalStaff Member; Steve Castor,Minority GeneralCounsel; James Lesinski, Minority Counsel; Betsy Ferguson,Minority Senior Counsel; Caroline Nabity, Minority Counsel; Michael Koren, Minority Senior ProfessionalStaff; Darius Namazi, Minority Research Assistant; and Isabela Belchior, Legislative Director for Representative Matt Gaetz. 3 Appearances: For DONMCGAHN: ALLISON MCGUIRE WILLIAM A. BURCK QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP 1300 I Street NW Suite 900 Washington,D.C. 20005 For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, COUNSEL For the OFFICE OF THE FORMERPRESIDENT TRUMP: SCOTT GAST 4 Mr. Hiller. All right. We'll go on the record. Good morning. I'm Aaron Hiller,deputy chief counselfor the House Judiciary Committee,and I havethe honor of kickingthings off today. This is a transcribed interview of former White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn. Would the witness please state his name and formal position at the White House for the record? Mr. McGahn. I'mDonald McGahn. I was the counsel to the President. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. Thank you for appearingheretoday. I will now ask everyone who is herein the roomto introducethemselves for the record. Remember to hit the "talk"button on your microphone. If you're not near a microphone,speak realloud for the reporters,startingwith Chairman Nadler. Chairman Nadler. I am Jerrold Nadler,chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Istel. Sarah Istel,counselfor HouseJudiciary Committee. Mr. Hiller. Mr. Raskin, why don't we go with the membersfirst? Mr. Raskin. Jamie Raskin, member of the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Hank Johnson, member of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Dean. Madeleine Dean,member of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Scanlon. Mary Gay Scanlon, member of the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Jordan. Jim Jordan,Fourth District of Ohio. Mr. Gaetz. MattGaetz, Judiciary Committee member. Mr. Hiller. And now the staff present,please. Mr.Apelbaum. Mr. Apelbaum. Perry Apelbaum, chief counsel,Judiciary Committee. Ms. Hariharan. Arya Hariharan,chief oversight counsel,majority staff. Mr. Emmons. Will Emmons,professionalstaff member, Judiciary staff. Ms. Mara. Priyanka Mara, professional staff member,majority staff. 5 Mr. Valdez. Anthony Valdez,professional staff member,majority staff. Mr. Gast. Scott Gast, Office of the Former President Trump. Ms. Belchior. Isabela Belchior. I'mwith the office of MattGaetz. Mr. Koren. MichaelKoren, professionalstaff with Mr. Jordan's staff. Mr. Lesinski. James Lesinski, Republicancounsel. Mr. Castor. Steve Castor with the Republicanstaff. Ms. Ferguson. Betsy Ferguson,senior counsel, Republicanstaff. Ms. Nabity. CarolineNabity,Republicanstaff member. Mr. Hiller. Thank you. Ms. Jackson Lee. Ms. Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, representingTexas' 18th Congressional District. Thank you. Mr. Hiller. And here at the table. Mr. Burck. WilliamBurck, counselfor Don McGahn. Ms. Shapiro. Elizabeth Shapiro, counselfor the Departmentof Justice. Ms. McGuire. Allison McGuire,counselfor Don McGahn. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, everybody. Mr. McGahn,beforewe begin in earnest, I'mgoing to set some context and go over the ground rulesfor the day. The committee first issued a subpoena for Mr.McGahn's testimony on April 22, 2019. Mr. McGahn was scheduled to testify beforethe committeeon May 21, 2019, but did not appear at that time. Pursuantto House rules,in order to carry over our request for Mr. McGahn's testimony to the new Congress,the committeereissued its subpoena to Mr. McGahn on January 11, 2021. 6 In an attempt to resolveour suit to enforcethat subpoena and compel that testimony, the committee has reached an accommodationwith the Department of Justice concerning the format and scope of this interview. The full details of that agreement are on file with the court. I will not read the whole thing here, but I'llget to the salient details. We should discuss a few aspects of that arrangement beforewe begin. First, members of the public, the press,and Membersof Congress who are not on the Judiciary Committeeare not permitted to attend this interview. We will also try to keep the staff in this roomto a minimum. And the chairman has instructed us to enforce this understanding. Second, under the strict terms of the agreement,only committee counsel, private counselfor Mr. McGahn,and counselfor the Departmentare permitted in this room. However, as a courtesy to the former President and at the requestof Mr.McGahn's attorney, the chairman will permit counselfor PresidentTrump to observe today as well. I am instructed to remind counselfor both the current administration and the former President that you are guests in this room,and I would ask that you please keep this in mind as we proceed. Out of fairness to our witness, we will try to keep any interruptionsto a minimum. Ifcounselfor Mr.McGahn or the Department would liketo register an objection, we will pause the interviewand attempt to resolve our disagreementsquickly and quietly on the side. Third, at the conclusion of the interview,Mr. McGahn,the committee will make the transcript available to you and to the Department for reviewprior to its publication. The chairman notesthat, in accordancewith our agreement,allmembersand staff present are required to maintain the confidentiality of that transcript untilwe are able to makethe document public. 7 Under the terms of our agreement with the Department,today's interview will cover the followingtopics, and I amquoting directly from the agreement here: one, informationattributed to Mr. McGahn in the publicly availableportions of the Mueller report and events that the publicly available portions of the Mueller report indicate involveMr. McGahn; and, two, whether the Mueller reportaccurately reflected Mr. McGahn'sstatementsto the Special Counsel's Office and whether those statementswere truthful, unquote. To be clear,either side may ask Mr. McGahn any questionson any number of topics, but within that agreed-upon scope, the Department will not raise any privilege issues and the committee expects that Mr. McGahn will respond to questionsin that frame with direct and complete answers. I'll pause for a momentto see if Mr. McGahn has any questions so far. Okay. Thank you. Just a little more officialbusiness,and then we'll begin. Our questioningwill proceed in 60-minute rounds. The majority will ask questions for one hour, and then the minority will havethe opportunity to ask questions for an equal period of time. We will repeat this back and forth for additionalroundsas necessary. The interviewwill end at the discretion of the chair,provided that the majority and the minority havehad an opportunity to question you for an equal amount of time. The majority and minority roundsare controlled by the chairman and ranking member, respectively. To maintain a clear record for the official reporter,there will beno interruptions by individualsor membersnot authorized to ask questions. Itis also important that we do not talk over one another or interrupt each other if we can help it. Typically,we take a short break at the end of each hour of questioning,but if you need an additionalbreak for 8 any reason, pleaselet us know. We will also break between majority and minority roundsin order to allow for appropriatehealth and safety measures. As you can see,the physicallayout of the room is a littledifferent than it normally is, in order to comply with health and safety guidelines from the House Sergeant at Arms and the Attending Physician. Mr. McGahn,an officialreporter is taking down everythingwe say to make a written record, so we ask that you give verbal responses to all questions. Do you understand this? This is a test. Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. The committee encourages witnesses who appear for transcribed interviewsto consult freely with counselif they so choose. You understand that you may consult with your private counselat any time, correct? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Although this interviewis not under oath,Federal law requiresyou to answer questionsfrom Congress truthfully. Do you understand this? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. That same obligation applies to questions posed by congressionalstaff. Do you understand this as well? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Witnesses who knowingly provide false testimony could be subject to criminal prosecution under 18U.S.C., Section 1001. Do you understand this? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthfulanswersto today's questions? 9 Mr. McGahn. No. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. As I noted earlier, we anticipate that our questionswill receive complete responses. Ifyou do not understand a question, please say so. If you honestly do not know the answer to a question or do not remember it,please say so and give us your best recollection. Ifyou learned the informationfrom someone else,pleaseinformus who,to the best of your knowledge,might be able to provide a more complete answer to the question. Mr. McGahn,this is the end of my preamble. Do you have any questionsbefore we begin? Mr. McGahn. No, no questions. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. Would you like to make any sort of opening statement before we begin? Mr. McGahn. No, but I appreciateyou asking. Mr. Hiller. All right. The majority will now begin its questioning with Ms. Istel. The time is 10:15. The floor is yours. EXAMINATION BY MS. ISTEL: Q Mr.McGahn,thanks for beinghere. A Good morning. Q Duringmy questions,I'llbe referencingpage numbersfrom the report. Unless I specify otherwise, I will be referringto Volume IIof the report.