Vol. 730 Wednesday, No. 4 20 April 2011 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DÁIL ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Dé Céadaoin, 20 Aibreán 2011. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 589 Requests to move Adjournment of Dáil under Standing Order 32 ……………… 596 Order of Business ……………………………… 596 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 600 Road Traffic Bill 2011 [Seanad]: Report and Final Stages ………………… 611 Nurses and Midwives Bill 2010: Order for Report Stage …………………………… 619 Report Stage ……………………………… 619 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport Priority Questions …………………………… 629 Other Questions …………………………… 637 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 648 Commission of Inquiry into Banking Sector: Statements ………………… 649 Private Members’ Business Energy Resources Motion (resumed)………………………690 Adjournment Debate Arts Funding ……………………………… 715 TaxCode…………………………………716 Asylum Applications …………………………… 718 Symphysiotomy Procedures ………………………… 721 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 723 DÁIL ÉIREANN ———— Dé Céadaoin, 20 Aibreán 2011. Wednesday, 20 April 2011. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Leaders’ Questions Deputy Micheál Martin: The Nyberg report is a candid and clear assessment of the origins of the financial crisis and at its core is an analysis of the systemic failures, which is far more challenging than a more narrow approach. It confirms that one cannot simply take action against a number of individuals and expect that everything will be fine. It explicitly addresses the roles of the banks, regulators, politicians—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: No, it does not. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——Departments, auditors, the media and commentators. A Deputy: And Fianna Fáil. Deputy Micheál Martin: I suggest to the Taoiseach that were Members to respond properly to the lessons of what went wrong, they must commit themselves to a much wider set of specific regulatory reforms. In this context, will the Taoiseach support the establishment of an Oireachtas regulatory oversight committee? Deputy Jerry Buttimer: The Deputy is 14 years late. Deputy Micheál Martin: Because the fundamental question—— Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: It is a bit late for that. Deputy Jerry Buttimer: Where has light-touch Charlie gone now? An Ceann Comhairle: Sorry, will the Deputies please allow the Leader of the Opposition to speak? Deputy Jerry Buttimer: Where has Charlie McCreevy gone? Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I apologise. An Ceann Comhairle: Thank you. Deputy Micheál Martin: The fundamental question remains as to who guards the guardians in such situations. The conventional wisdom historically and over the past decade or so advo- 589 Leaders’ 20 April 2011. Questions [Deputy Micheál Martin.] cated the independence of regulators from politicians and from the Oireachtas. That has been the conventional wisdom but when things collapse, conventional wisdom changes and Members need to endeavour—— Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Revisionism. Deputy Jerry Buttimer: Light-touch Charlie. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——to create alternatives to that approach. I suggest a proposal I have made previously, namely, the establishment of an Oireachtas regulatory oversight commit- tee with the capacity to hire independent expert staff to assist it in its work. Members are in discussions on the establishment of committees and this presents an opportunity for this Dáil to establish such a committee to ensure that this House — if one goes back over the past decade or so, one will note the House rarely discussed bank regulation — will have an ongoing, systemic approach to overseeing the work of the various regulatory authorities in the different sectors of our economy. The Taoiseach: I thank the Deputy for his having arrived at a point of distilled wisdom after all the years. I agree on behalf of everyone else in the House that Members should have the capacity to have authority to investigate such matters properly. The Nyberg report speaks for itself. However, what it does not state is that the entire culture was such and that banks knew they were lending too much and in many cases, borrowers knew they were borrowing too much. I recall being in the House during the controversy caused by a former Taoiseach to the effect that if people were a bit concerned about the housing business or that the housing boom might fail, they should go off and commit suicide. When the Nyberg report came before the Cabinet, it discussed this and people want those who were involved in reckless lending and the pursuit of such activities to be legitimately questioned. The Oireachtas does not have the auth- ority to do this because of the current legislative constraints. The Government intends to change this and will ask the people for their authority and imprimatur to deal with the con- sequences of the Abbeylara judgment. This will give the Oireachtas the right to investigate the facts, without criminal intent being determined, in the way people desire in respect of account- ability. This will be the oversight that Members must have and will get. The Government will bring forward its views shortly after Easter on the new committees and the numbers thereof, which will be seriously reduced. These committees will have the opportunity to deal in a real way with issues that come before them. In respect of the matters arising from the Nyberg report and for all future occasions, I want elected Members of the Oireachtas to have the right to have compellability whereby witnesses may be called before them to investigate facts regard- ing which the electorate is rightly and thoroughly outraged. Deputy Micheál Martin: One can be highly partisan and political about this issue but that is not the point. The Nyberg report fundamentally is about a systemic failure across a range of issues and I have put forward a constructive proposal in the context of how, on an ongoing basis and in a systemic way, Members should change the way in which they do politics and business in the House by having a proper regulatory Oireachtas committee with teeth and with independent expertise that can ensure the role and performance of regulators are as the legislat- ive framework ordains. This change can and should be brought about and I ask the Taoiseach to make a commitment to work with other leaders in the House to establish such a regulatory oversight committee. I have no difficulty with the amendment of the Constitution in respect of the Abbeylara judgment. However, while that will deal with the specific issue on hand, other issues may arise in the future. The Taoiseach is correct in that one can make comments and 590 Leaders’ 20 April 2011. Questions observations about what did or did not happen. Regulation was introduced here and the Oireachtas raised issues on dog doping and so on but what is important—— Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We know what happened. Deputy Jerry Buttimer: We still are paying for it. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——in respect of what happened within the financial system is that Members should change systemically the manner in which they operate to ensure they can prevent other occurrences in the future. The Taoiseach: While there was a regulation committee in the last Dáil, it was not able to do its duty. The question to be asked of the people will give the Oireachtas and its committees real authority and teeth to do their job both in a specific case and for all others. I believe the Deputy will agree with and support this measure. While the Nyberg report speaks of systemic failure, it also deals with a blatant lack of leadership and direction from the Government in office. Deputies: Hear, hear. The Taoiseach: When the Abbeylara consequence has been dealt with, the appropriate com- mittee to deal with these matters also will be able to call before it politicians representing the Government. I refer to my quotation from the Nyberg report yesterday, “The higher ... [the office], the greater their responsibility”, and that did not exclude politicians or the political process. This is the reason a referendum on the Abbeylara judgment is needed and is the reason I intend to enable Members of the Oireachtas on an appropriate committee to do their duty for the people so that there can be accountability for what happened. As the Deputy knows well, this was a scandalous series of events. He was a Member on the benches on this side of the House which unfortunately allowed it to happen. That is in the past and we must now deal with the future to ensure this cannot happen again. An Ceann Comhairle: Thank you Taoiseach. Deputies: Hear, hear. The Taoiseach: The Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, has pointed out that decisions will be taken in conjunction with the EU directions for changes and in respect of what the Govern- ment will implement. Deputy Gerry Adams: Obviously, we need to put in place procedures and committees with appropriate powers to deal with this issue, but we are missing the point about the pulse of the public. The Nyberg report points to all of the failures. Sinn Féin warned about what would happen, but we were ignored and dismissed. We repeatedly called for stronger regulation, caps on remuneration, a fair tax policy and so on. What about those who created this mess? How will they be held accountable? Yesterday the Taoiseach stated he would not intervene to get back the €3 million of the people’s money pocketed by Colm Doherty of AIB, citing contractual entitlements. This came the week after the announcement that 2,000 lower paid bank workers would be sacked, while thousands more are being denied modest pay rewards, despite their contractual entitlements. Is it only the rich and the golden circles that have entitlements? Cénfáth nach ndéanann an Taoiseach an rud ceart — seasamh ar son na cosmhuintire amuigh ansin in ionad bheith ag seasamh ar son an chiorcail órga atá beo go fóill? As we seek to reform the banking system, can we expect to 591 Leaders’ 20 April 2011.