Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee Oral evidence: Pre-appointment hearing: Chair of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, HC 168 Tuesday 17 March 2020 Ordered by the House of Commons to be published on 17 March 2020. Watch the meeting Members present: Mr David Jones (Chair); Rachel Hopkins; David Mundell; Tom Randall; Karin Smyth; John Stevenson. Questions 1 - 56 Witness I: Rt Hon Lord Pickles, Government’s preferred candidate. Examination of witness Witness: Rt Hon Lord Pickles, Government’s preferred candidate. Q1 Chair: We are pleased to welcome Lord Pickles today to this session of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. We are here to consider your appointment to the Chair of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments. We have a number of questions. I am sure you are very familiar with the procedure, so I will start. Can you just explain to the Committee how you came to be appointed to the chairmanship of ACoBA? Lord Pickles: I became a member as a political appointment. I understood that Baroness Browning was going to retire and I thought I would keep an eye out on the website. When it came in, I duly applied, got an application form and filled it in. That was of course under Mrs May. I heard that I was going to get an interview and then we had a change of Government, a general election a month after filling it in. I got an interview two or three weeks ago and now I am the preferred candidate. Q2 David Mundell: Lord Pickles, what about the Chair particularly attracted you to apply? Lord Pickles: There are two reasons why I applied, one of which I am partly to blame for. The nature of the civil service has changed. I think it has changed dramatically since I first became a Member of Parliament in 1992 and it has changed rapidly over the last five or six years. Career paths have changed. Increasingly it is going to become the norm for civil servants to move in and out of the civil service into voluntary organisations, local government, the private sector and come back and go out again. The way that we currently operate, I do not think that we understand that. There are three areas that cause problems. First is regulation; second is procurement; the third is contract negotiations. In a way, you want to make it as easy as possible to move between the various sectors, but you need to protect those three things. I say it is partly my fault. When I was Secretary of State I started to advertise externally for a post. Indeed, I was at the signing of the 20th anniversary of the Stockholm Declaration and bumped into a chap who was working for the Commission who had worked in my Department, so I encourage people not only to come from other Government Departments and local government, but also from different countries. The second reason is it is important for us to be able to reassure the public clearly that people do not personally get financial remuneration on the basis of privileged information that they have obtained. That needs to be addressed, particularly in a Brexit world, where there is going to be an awful lot of negotiations, people engaged in those negotiations, and an awful lot of new procurement. Unless we get that absolutely right, it is one of these things that will rot Government from the inside. Those are two reasons. Sorry for the long answer. Q3 David Mundell: No, they are very interesting answers and they are topics that I think myself and colleagues will pick up during the course of the questioning. How do you think it fits in with other roles and responsibilities that you have? Does it dovetail or is it something that is standalone? Lord Pickles: The majority of my time in terms of public life is split between being the Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues, thus an international role. I think I can guarantee for the next few weeks I will have a lot more time to devote to this particular responsibility than would be normal. Secondly, the Holocaust Memorial Trust intend to build a memorial and learning centre next to Parliament, so I think it fits in very well. But also a compare and contrast, because given the nature of the work, it is two to three days a month—I do not anticipate that those are whole days—a lot of it is going to be distant working, a lot of it is dealing with correspondence. I suppose if I have to follow the Chairman of this Committee into isolation, I should be able to do that. If he is watching, I wish him well. Q4 David Mundell: I am sure we all wish the Chairman well and thank you for saying that, because what I would be interested to know is what you see your ongoing relationship with this Committee as being. Lord Pickles: As Chairman, as a leader, you have various jobs to do. First of all you have to push through an agenda, an agenda of fairness, openness, responsible to the Nolan Principles. It is not only for the Committee, but also the staff that will be working for the Committee, it is part of your job to bring the best out of them, to make them want to achieve more. I want to ensure a happy and harmonious relationship with this Committee. I would like to ensure that somebody who goes into the process, either a senior civil servant or a politician, would come out of that process, regardless of the result, feeling that they have been treated fairly and honestly and openly. I would also like to explore the possibilities of what transparency brings. In some ways, while I think there has been a change of attitude since the letters have been published online, I have noticed a slight change in the tone of some of the letters. I would like to explore that. Q5 David Mundell: Would you commit today to alerting the Committee to matters of concern that you perceive during your time as Chairman? Lord Pickles: I have never felt the relationship between either a Minister and a Select Committee or Chairman and this Select Committee should be one of us and them. It should be one of co-operation. I did five years as Secretary of State and I certainly found the Select Committee to be enormously useful in terms of moving ideas and issues along and often quite influential in my thinking. I am hoping for a productive and harmonious relationship. Q6 David Mundell: A proactive one on your part as well? Lord Pickles: You will be able to feel the love. Q7 Chair: You will know that in the past this Committee has expressed concern about ACoBA, its effectiveness, and we would really appreciate it if the Chairman of the Committee could keep in close contact with us with any matters of concern. Lord Pickles: That is a reasonable request and it is one that I would welcome. Q8 John Stevenson: Lord Pickles, in the candidate pack it says, “Candidates with experience of working in the private sector were particularly welcomed”. Have you ever run a business? Lord Pickles: I have been a non-executive director. John Stevenson: Have you ever run a business? Lord Pickles: Only as a non-executive director and only maybe as a paperboy, which I ran very well. Q9 John Stevenson: Would you say that it is a weakness in your application? Because if I was entirely honest, a non-executive director is not hands-on private sector activity. Lord Pickles: No, it is not hands-on, and I think that is a reasonable and legitimate criticism, but I think I bring other qualities that perhaps balance that out. Q10 John Stevenson: Moving on slightly, in your role as the Chair of the Committee, do you see part of the role as increasing the diversity of the Committee membership? Lord Pickles: Yes, that is a very sensible thing to do. I think I have two appointments coming up this year and I would want to ensure that. I saw something from my old friend, Paul Flynn—the late lamented—who said there needed to be more bus drivers and I cannot remember the second category. I will do my best. Q11 John Stevenson: Looking at the present membership, it is anything but diverse. Lord Pickles: It is not, no. Q12 John Stevenson: How do you think you can go about doing that and how can you attract people? Because I think the great problem is how do we get people to apply in the first place. Lord Pickles: That is right. People applying need to be inspired that they are part of something important, something that is going to make a difference and something that is not going to be a rubberstamp, but actively work towards encouraging that movement between the different sectors, but ensuring that people properly understand where the line is. It will be my intention right from the very beginning to try to talk people through some of the issues and the points that are catching and causing delay and to try to work together. It has always been my experience as a chairman of a committee or as a Minister that your job is to bring people along, to ensure that people do not feel isolated. I talked earlier about bringing the best out in the staff. In a way, while a lot of people that you have on the Committee are very senior people, you want to bring the best out in them.