Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project AMBASSADOR MAX M. KAMPELMAN Interviewed by: Charles Stuart Kennedy Initial interview date: June 24, 2003 Copyright 2005 ADST TABLE OF CONTENTS Background Born and raised in Ne York City Ne York University, University of Minnesota WWII, non-combatant service Human Starvation Study + volunteer Bennington College, ,ermont- Professor 19.8-19.9 Marriage Washington, D.C. + Assistant to Hubert Humphrey 19.9-1922 Democratic Party McCarthy Americans for Democratic Action 3ADA4 5orean War 6yndon 7ohnson Feli8 Cohen Washington, D.C. + Private la practice 1922-1980 District of Columbia National Bank Relationship ith President 7ohnson City Council Chairmanship offer Hubert Humphrey Politics ,oice of America liberalism Workers Unions liberalism Minnesota labor Washington, D.C + Public activities 1922-196. President, Friends of the National Zoo Chairman, Public Television channel 26 Diplomatic Study organizations 1 Presidential Campaigns 196., 1968 and 1972 6yndon 7ohnson Hubert Humphrey ,ice-President@s Residence ,ietnam ,ice-Presidential candidates McAovern Richard Ni8on 7ack 5ennedy Committee on the Present Danger Presidential Elections 1976 Henry 3Scoop4 7ackson Hubert Humphrey Walter Mondale President 7immy Carter years 1977-1981 Afghanistan Madrid Conference + Chief of Delegation William Scranton Dante Fascell Helsinki Final Act Revie Arthur Aoldberg + Mid-East negotiator Aermans in USSR Soviet 7e s President Reagan Years + US Rep., Arms Reduction Negotiations 1981-1987 Madrid Conference Soviet delegation Meeting Pres. Reagan Business Roundtable Aeorge Schulz Pentecostals in USSR Soviets French disarmament proposal Pres. Reagan policies CIA El Salvador Chairman, US delegation, Aeneva Conference Foreign Special missions Shevardnadze meeting ABM Treaty Reykjavik meeting Intermediate Nuclear Free 3INP4 START 2 Missile D 3M-D missiles4 SchulzEShevardnadze relations Congressional relations Tel Aviv embassy issue NATO Aeorge Bush Copenhagen meeting FAgreement of ParisG Non-Aovernment Organization activity 7e ish-Israeli Organizations Democratic movement Helsinki process US diplomatic organizations 6a practice Aeorge Bush presidency IraH Israel INTERVIEW Q: Today is June 24th, 2003. This is an interview with Max M. Kampelman. This is being done on behalf of the Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training, and I*m Charles Stuart Kennedy. To begin with, when are where were you born? 5AMPE6MANI I as born in Ne York on November 7, 1920J so I@m 82 years old. Q: So you were born in the city? 5AMPE6MANI In the city. Q: Can you tell me a bit about your parents, first on your father*s side and then on your mother*s side? 5AMPE6MANI Well, both of my parents came from a portion of Europe, hich as then considered a part of Romania, although it@s gone through different transitions over the years. They met here in the United States. Though they both came from the same community they didn@t kno each other in Europe, but they met in the United States. They married in Ne York. I as the only child. Q: ,hat was sort of the bac-ground of your family? It was a Jewish family? C 5AMPE6MANI A 7e ish family. Q: Is there a family trade or something li-e that? 5AMPE6MANI I don@t kno as much as I ould like to kno and freHuently criticize myself for not asking more Huestions hen I as younger. My mother@s father as relatively ell to do and as involved in agriculture in Romania. I don@t kno very much at all about my father@s father. I kne my father@s mother, my grandmother, because she came over ith her children to the United States - and ith her husband, but her husband died before I as born. She as a grand dame and kept the family together, the brothers, and lived ith one of my uncles, al ays adjacent to us, so e ere very close. So I gre up really in a kind of intimate relationship ith my father@s family. My parents met actually at one of the ethnic groups that ere created in Ne York, here people from the same European community, particularly among the 7e s, ould form their o n burial society. Q: .es. The burial society was a very important factor. 5AMPE6MANI There ere not only burial societies, but there ere places here one could borro money ithout interest and pay it back. It as a cooperative kind of arrangement. And that@s here they met. It as at the outset, by no means, a financially comfortable arrangement. We lived in the Bron8 in an area that as - I ouldn@t call it a slum, but a lo -income area of the Bron8 - and that@s here I as born. My father as first in the silk remnant business. This as before my time. When I began gro ing up, he, for some reason, opened up a butcher shopJ so he as a butcher and my mother ould ork in the shop. Things got better after a hile and through one of his associates born in the same area he did some investing in real estate and therefore until the Depression ent up a little bit and e moved into better homes - better apartments actually. Q: These were apartments then? 5AMPE6MANI All apartments. Q: ,ere they wal--up apartments? 5AMPE6MANI Walk-up apartments, yes. When things turned bad again he left the butcher business and they decided - because again, one of their friends as in the ladies@ hat business, so they opened up a retail establishment selling ladies hats, after the butcher shop closed. My father died hen he as fifty-four, a relatively young man, but by then e ere living in a relatively comfortable private home. But he left no money really and e ended up living in hat I . ould then call a slum. It as an apartment in hich my mother@s sister as living. She as a religious person so e had that orientation. Q: I was wondering, as a child, when you were growing up, where did your family fall in the Jewish religious spectrum? 5AMPE6MANI Orthodo8, hich as the typical reaction. The reform as really mostly Aerman 7e s. My parents ere not observant, but my mother kept a kosher home. We ere not particularly observant, but my parents and I ent to High Holiday services in the orthodo8 synagogue herever e lived. I guess that@s the ay it ent. I received a rather intensive 7e ish education. They felt, even though they ere not themselves observant in an orthodo8 sense, they anted me to have training in this. Q: ,ell, the only child and a male child, at that. 5AMPE6MANI Yes, a male child. And therefore, beginning ith kindergarten I attended 7e ish Hebre schools. They ere called yeshivas. That as kindergarten, first grade through eighth grade, and then to a high school ith the same orientation. All male, half a day traditional public school classes taught by teachers ho ere teaching in the public school systemJ in the afternoons e had them, in the mornings there ere 7e ish studies. Bible language Q: So essentially your schools were not public schools. 5AMPE6MANI Not public schools. Q: It sounds li-e you were in what amounted to a rather constrained enclave in a way. 5AMPE6MANI Well, I ouldn@t call it constrained as much as relatively isolated, ere it not for the fact that there ere many of us, that e ere friends ith one another. Q: How about being out on the streets? ,hat did you do for fun? 5AMPE6MANI 6et me give you an e8ample. Beginning ith the first grade, our classes ould begin at nine o@clock in the morning and ended at five o@clock at night because you had t o kinds of classes. And that as my schedule through high school. Nine o@clock in the morning until five o@clock at night, hich didn@t give you a great deal of time ith respect to the streets after school. Public school, for e8ample, the elementary school - e ere right across the street from a public school - they ere rather rough, thre rocks at us and that kind of thing you@d e8pect in that kind of a neighborhood. On the other hand, among my fello students Babe Ruth as a heroJ e kne hat the Yankees ere doing, like ordinary kids. Q: .es. 2 5AMPE6MANI At some time I got a job even selling scorecards at Yankee Stadium for a short period during the summers. So that as the schedule then. The e8posure to non- 7e ish kids of our age as minimal. People orking for my parents in the stores ere, in all cases I can remember, none 7e s. They ere friends. Our familiarity ith the non- 7e ish communities as kids as that they ould thro rocks at us. Q: 1f course this was New .or- and the Catholic -ids were going to Catholic schools and they were probably having roc-s thrown at them. They were -ind of no-go areas. 5AMPE6MANI E8actly. That as my gro ing up. We had very good education, I felt, through high school. Q: .ou were eight by the time the Depression started to develop and all. ,as this sort of a continual presence, the economy, in your family? s a -id, did you reali3e 5AMPE6MANI I as shielded from the pressure. I kne my parents both orked, but they shielded me from the negatives, e8cept here e lived, but here e lived I didn@t kno any better. I mean this as home. Q: .es, home is home. They*re all the same digs. Really, as a -id you don*t notice this sort of thing.