Transcript Frosty Neighbours? Unpacking Narratives of Afghanistan-Pakistan Relations Suddaf Chaudry Investigative Journalist and Documentary Producer Amil Khan Associate Fellow, Asia-Pacific Programme, Chatham House Sana Safi Journalist and Presenter, BBC Afghanistan Service Chair: Hameed Hakimi Research Associate, Asia-Pacific Programme and Europe Programme, Chatham House 03 December 2018 The views expressed in this document are the sole responsibility of the speaker(s) and participants, and do not necessarily reflect the view of Chatham House, its staff, associates or Council. Chatham House is independent and owes no allegiance to any government or to any political body. It does not take institutional positions on policy issues. This document is issued on the understanding that if any extract is used, the author(s)/speaker(s) and Chatham House should be credited, preferably with the date of the publication or details of the event. Where this document refers to or reports statements made by speakers at an event, every effort has been made to provide a fair representation of their views and opinions. The published text of speeches and presentations may differ from delivery. © The Royal Institute of International Affairs, 2018. 10 St James’s Square, London SW1Y 4LE T +44 (0)20 7957 5700 F +44 (0)20 7957 5710 www.chathamhouse.org Patron: Her Majesty The Queen Chairman: Stuart Popham QC Director: Dr Robin Niblett Charity Registration Number: 208223 2 Frosty Neighbours? Unpacking Narratives of Afghanistan-Pakistan Relations Hameed Hakimi Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to Chatham House. My name is Hameed Hakimi and I’m a Research Associate here. I’m very happy that you’re here because given the rain, we were expecting that would affect the turnout. Very delighted to welcome you all. A few logistical issues, just before I kick off the event. This event is on the record. It’s also being livestreamed, which means the video would be available on our website later on, on the link to the website, to this event on our website. If I can kindly request you to put your phones on silent, and you are more than welcome to tweet about this event, which we encourage. The hashtag is CHEvents and details are on the screen. You will have an opportunity to ask questions of the panel in the Q&A session, but we would have the order, in the way we are sitting, so the colleagues will go from Sana to Suddaf and to Amil and we’ll come back to a couple of questions before we open the floor. I’m very delighted to be moderating the session because it’s been something that we have thought about for a long time to do at Chatham House, the idea of Pakistan-Afghanistan narratives, based on our work in the two countries. We thought it would be very useful to have a conversation that’s from a fresher angle. As you all know, we are in a world of mobilised public. What people think of others has a direct impact on policies. Conflict is often preceded by polarisation, but equally, political leaders looking to provoke conflict for short-term gain, will find it difficult to get traction, if the audiences don’t perceive a threat. So, this is – Afghanistan-Pakistan actually, is a classic example. They find themselves in a strange predicament, with strong historical, cultural and religious ties, the countries often officially profess friendship with each other, but also, people to people. However, both see the other, to some degree, at least at state level, as a threat and as a factor of instability, and this has informed constantly the state centric narratives in both countries. Can the new Government of Imran Kahn, present Pakistan and Afghanistan an opportunity to move beyond the present cold friendship? Will the Afghan Government, driven by considerations for regional connectivity, economic connectivity, become a partner with Pakistan to build confidence, based on economic, political and social ties? And lastly, with the rise of political populism globally, are the roots of negative narratives, getting deeper among the social media savvy Afghans and Pakistanis, particularly the young people? We have a very able panel today. I’m delighted to welcome them. We have Sana Safi here to discuss, as a panel, all of these issues we have just kind of, briefly outlined. Sana is a Journalist and she’s a Senior Presenter for Afghanistan – a BBC Afghanistan Service. She’s got a BBC Pashto programme, Naray Da Wakht, which means the world right now. She’s also contributing regularly to BBC World Service productions generally. You recently covered a very important story on the plight of Afghan migrants in Bosnia. I’m not going to go through your entire CV and you have a distinguished CV. We also have Suddaf, sitting next to you, Suddaf Chaudry you are a Freelance Investigative Journalist, covering extremism, security, politics and human rights, primarily focusing on the Middle East and Pakistan. You have a portfolio of work, some of which I have seen on your wonderful website. And then we have Amil Khan, who’s our Associate Fellow here at Chatham House, and he examines the Gulf, South Asia, issues for Asia-Pacific Programme, but he also has extensive experience of reporting with Reuters and the BBC, across the Middle East, South Asia and Africa. You have also worked with the UK Government focusing on counter-extremism and in Pakistan and Afghanistan. 3 Frosty Neighbours? Unpacking Narratives of Afghanistan-Pakistan Relations So, that’s the panel. I’d like to kick off with Suddaf, you have up to six to seven minutes, if you can make the initial remarks and then we move to Suddaf and then to Amil. Thank you Sana Safi Okay. Thank you, Hameed, and thank you everyone for coming. If you ask Afghans what they think of Pakistan, the answer will most likely be negative, and if you ask them further, why they think that and what makes them think that? The answer will depend on their personal experiences, how they see their situation, in relation to the rest of the country, and what they see on media and on social media. So, the first category of Afghans, who have nothing good to say about their neighbour, are those Afghans who were forced to become refugees in Pakistan, after the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan, and the subsequent years that people left. Some of their memories are still fresh from that time and some of them are negative memories, be it Police brutality or exploitation or discrimination. The second category of Afghans are those who live under the Taliban, controlled or influenced areas. Those Afghans, when they compare the situation in their own localities with the rest of Afghanistan, they automatically blame the Taliban for that, because predictably, their areas are behind when it comes to a development, be it economic, social, human or political. So, they think that the reason for their “backwardness”, is because of the Taliban and by extension. Pakistan. For instance, I was chatting to a woman in Helmand, who had recently moved to Lashkargāh, the capital of the province, from one of the districts where the Taliban have control, and I was asking her about schools and I said, “Did you have schools?” She said, “Yes, there was something for boys, it was a Madrassa, but there was nothing for girls.” So – and then she went on to say that the Taliban were there to make our lives hell. It doesn’t affect them because their own families are not here, they’re in Pakistan. And so, this a woman who is a housewife; she has never gone to school, but she understands what’s happening in her locality, and also, she has heard the macro narrative that Pakistan is forging the Taliban. So, the third category of Afghans are those who are mobile, urban, connected, media savvy, tech savvy, they are – they get all their information from the media, and the media in Afghanistan, it would be fair to say, is one of the biggest achievement of the Afghan Government, but it has been at the service of the political elite, and the political elite has used it in a way that has driven this anti-Pakistan narrative. So, the political class have blamed Pakistan for anything that’s happening in Afghanistan. One example would be, that there is a major attack in Kabul for example, and as soon as you put the television on, you see commentators, experts, or sort of – or Politicians, they blame Pakistan prematurely, without waiting for any investigation or any sort of fact finding. So, the urban young Afghans get the information from their political elite, and at the same time, they take that on social media, they debate it with themselves, with their friends, in their localities, in their communities, as well as on social media, in their own groups, where no-one else is allowed. The voices of dissent are silent because those are likeminded groups, that only likeminded people can attend, so they reinforce those views with each other. And, speaking of the media, the media in Pakistan has not helped, and when it comes to the anti-Pakistan narrative, and that – what I mean by that is, there was an attack in Kandahar that killed the Provincial Police Chief and General Abdul Raziq, a few weeks ago, and soon after that attack there was a newspaper article in Urdu that was circulating on social media, and Afghans were distributing it, and crazy. And they – that article read that – Kandahar [mother tongue – 09:15] if you translate it into English, that would read as spectacular blood bath in Afghanistan.