Committee for Finance OFFICIAL REPORT (Hansard) Sale of National Asset Management Agency Assets in Northern Ireland: Mr Máirtín Ó Muilleoir MLA (Minister of Finance) 5 October 2016 NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY Committee for Finance Sale of National Asset Management Agency Assets in Northern Ireland: Mr Máirtín Ó Muilleoir MLA (Minister of Finance) 5 October 2016 Members present for all or part of the proceedings: Mrs Emma Little Pengelly (Chairperson) Ms Claire Hanna (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Jim Allister Mr Jonathan Bell Mr Paul Girvan Mr Ross Hussey Mr Gerry Mullan Mr John O'Dowd Ms Caitríona Ruane Mr Philip Smith Mr Jim Wells Witnesses: Mr Ó Muilleoir Minister of Finance The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): I invite the Minister to take a seat because, to keep everybody right, I want to deal with the police correspondence on this as part of the preamble to the Committee's questions being asked. As members are aware, we have received correspondence from the PSNI about the ongoing criminal investigation. Caitríona, you are absolutely right: we had this discussion in the Committee, and the Committee agreed that the appropriate person to carry out the investigation was the Commissioner for Standards. I know that there are other issues there. In addition to that, we understand that the commissioner has suspended his investigation because of the ongoing police investigation. Therefore, for the sake of absolute clarity, the Committee agreed to invite you along, Minister. We agreed not to carry out an inquiry — we do not have terms of reference for an inquiry around this — but simply to extend to you as Minister of Finance the opportunity to come along. You have made statements in the media in relation to what you knew or, more accurately, what you did not know around all of this, so we felt that it would be appropriate to give you the opportunity to come along today and speak to us about that and put on record your position on a range of the issues. I ask all members to be cognisant of the fact that there are ongoing criminal investigations. There is advice here from PSNI serious crime branch to be cognisant of that. We understand that that investigation is of course at an early stage, and we do not have any information around that, so that is not on the basis of any detailed information. There is that ongoing investigation, and members should be aware of that. When members are asking questions, I ask everybody to refrain from drawing 1 conclusions, because the case has not been investigated and all of the evidence weighed. I also ask members to refrain, if possible, from badgering the witness. I want to give all members the opportunity to speak and ask questions. Mr Ó Muilleoir (The Minister of Finance): Are you talking about Caitríona Ruane badgering the witness? The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): I will not, as Chair, allow questions to be asked repeatedly to the point of badgering the witness. I want everything to be carried out with decorum. Ms Ruane: For clarification, presumably it is not "the witness" but "the Minister". The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): Yes. Ms Ruane: OK. Thank you. Mr Ó Muilleoir: A Chathaoirligh chóir, go raibh maith agat as an chuireadh. Thanks, Madam Chairwoman, for the invite. We have a couple of officials outside doing hard time, waiting to address the Committee at 3.00 pm. Why do we not let them go today? The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): I apologise. Mr Ó Muilleoir: We can return to rates and budgets. I think that we will have a really good conversation, and I do not think that it will be over in an hour. It would be unfair to make the officials wait, unless you are determined to speak about rates and budgets. How determined a crew are you? Ms Hanna: The Public Accounts Committee in Dublin sat for 10 hours last week. The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): The preference of members was to talk about these related issues. Mr Ó Muilleoir: We should let the officials go, with your permission. The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): Are members content with that suggestion? Members indicated assent. Mr Ó Muilleoir: Thank you. Can someone pass that message on? They could be out there for another hour. The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): Again, Minister, apologies for the delay. Obviously, we are running significantly behind schedule. Mr Ó Muilleoir: It is OK. The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): Unfortunately, we received the correspondence from the PSNI at a very late stage, so we had to consider that. Mr Ó Muilleoir: It is a bit like being read your rights and having the Miranda rights put in front of you. I appreciate that. I had a good discussion with Detective Superintendent Geddes outside. I do not envy him his job in trying to get the Committee, never mind everybody else, to cooperate with what he desires to see. Madam Chairwoman, I was in Newcastle this morning. It was a wonderful day for being beside the beach, but I wanted to make sure that we were here to address the Committee. I understand that these matters are complex and complicated. You were having a fight when I came in. I am not sure what that relates to, but maybe I will find out as the session goes on. Maybe "fight" is too strong; you were having a heated discussion. Mr Allister was holding his own, I am glad to say, although we may return later on to ask, "Did he coach Jamie Bryson? Has Jamie Bryson been in his room?" — 2 Mr Allister: Certainly not. Mr Ó Muilleoir: — or "Had he seen any of this correspondence?". Just to catch a little bit of the correspondence, if I may, I will open with this. You made another honourable mention of my good self in some of the Twitter text messages. Whether I am mentioned two times or 200 times, I had no knowledge of this communication. I welcome the opportunity to talk to you directly. I said this in the Assembly and in the media, but there is no reason why it should not be said to the Committee: I had no knowledge of the communications and no hand, act or part in the correspondence or exchange between Messrs Bryson, O'Hara and McKay. I learned about it when on a beautiful holiday in the Basque country in August. Mr Allister knows the dates. I am not sure of the exact dates, but it was about six weeks ago. The first thing that I did on my return was to state, without any ambiguity, that I had no knowledge of the exchange. I suppose that, ultimately, the great public out there pay their money and make their choice. For my part, I have been very clear that I had nothing at all to do with the correspondence. I said this in the Assembly, and it is worth saying it here because you wrote to ask me about any communications with Mr McKay, Mr O'Hara or Mr Bryson: I had none. I said that in the Assembly, and I am happy to say it again today. We all have too many social media channels, but neither Twitter nor Facebook nor Snapchat — Paul Girvan is a bit of a digital revolutionist, so he might know all the rest of the channels. There were text messages and emails. I have no communications at all to provide you with. I said at the time that there was a bit of party politicking going on. It is sort of amazing that, in a place created for politics, some people might want to speak out to the advantage of their party. I think that it goes with the territory. I did not take it terribly seriously when my dear colleagues, Ms Hanna and Mr Smith, were asking whether I would step aside. The only stepping that I will do will be stepping up. The Chairperson (Mrs Little Pengelly): I think that the entire Committee wrote to you and asked, with the exception of your colleagues. Ms Hanna: For the record, I was not at that meeting. I was also on my holidays. Mr Ó Muilleoir: I am not referring to a meeting. Was there a meeting? I was talking about comments in the press afterwards. Let us get that on the record. You asked me, and you were very kind: I did not answer the first time you asked me to step aside, and I did not answer the second time. I presume that you were teasing me both times, because anybody who knows of my commitment to the process that we are involved in knows that I will only step up in that regard. I want to say one other thing about Mr McKay — I missed some of the latest iterations of the discussion, although I am sure that someone will enlighten me later on. Mr Wells: We will. Mr Ó Muilleoir: Madam Chairwoman, I am glad that you have a fairly strong control over the Committee, especially on my right — on my hard right. I am not a hanging judge. There may be some hanging judges here — I will not make that allegation — but I am not a hanging judge, so I will not say anything that will prejudice Mr McKay's right to a fair hearing. Speaking outside, Mr Geddes said that fairness would go to the heart of whatever inquiry he is involved in. Much as I respect this august gathering and Committee, the PSNI inquiry into these matters is, I think we will all agree, more serious than the business at hand, whether that leads to an inquiry or to just a discussion or conversation with me.