COVID-19 Committee Wednesday 9 September 2020 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Wednesday 9 September 2020 CONTENTS Col. INTERESTS......................................................................................................................................................... 1 SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION............................................................................................................................... 2 Coronavirus (Scotland) Acts (Early Expiry of Provisions) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/249) ..................... 2 Coronavirus (Scotland) Acts (Amendment of Expiry Dates) Regulations 2020 [Draft] ................................ 2 COVID-19 COMMITTEE 15th Meeting 2020, Session 5 CONVENER *Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) DEPUTY CONVENER *Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) *Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) *Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) *Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) *Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Professor Linda Bauld (University of Edinburgh) Sarah Booth (Scottish Human Rights Commission) Michael Clancy (Law Society of Scotland) Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Helen Martin (Scottish Trades Union Congress) Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) (Committee Substitute) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Sigrid Robinson LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 9 SEPTEMBER 2020 2 Scottish Parliament Subordinate Legislation COVID-19 Committee Coronavirus (Scotland) Acts (Early Expiry of Provisions) Regulations 2020 (SSI Wednesday 9 September 2020 2020/249) [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:30] Coronavirus (Scotland) Acts (Amendment of Expiry Dates) Regulations 2020 [Draft] Interests 09:32 The Convener (Donald Cameron): Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting of the The Convener: The main item of business COVID-19 Committee. We have received today is an evidence-taking session with apologies from Ross Greer and Beatrice Wishart, stakeholders from a range of sectors, to obtain who are both attending other parliamentary their views generally on the Scottish Government’s committees this morning. proposals to extend the use of some of its emergency powers and to expire other provisions I welcome Willie Rennie, who is substituting for early under the Coronavirus (Scotland) Acts. Beatrice Wishart, and Christine Grahame, who has an interest in the matters that we are I welcome our witnesses to the meeting. With considering today. us, we have Professor Linda Bauld, who is the Bruce and John Usher professor of public health Under our first item of business, we have and the co-director of the centre for population various declarations of interest to be made. health sciences at the University of Edinburgh; Stewart Stevenson, do you have any relevant Sarah Booth, who is a legal officer representing interests to declare? the Scottish Human Rights Commission; Michael Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Clancy, who is the director of law reform at the Coast) (SNP): I simply record that I am the Law Society of Scotland; and Helen Martin, who is complainant in a criminal trial that is expected to the deputy general secretary for policy, political take place before a jury. Accordingly, I will take no liaison and equalities at the Scottish Trades Union part in that section of the meeting that refers to Congress. procedures in court and related matters. I will ask the first question, which is a general The Convener: Willie Rennie, do you have any one for any of our witnesses to answer. If they all relevant interests to declare? wish to answer, perhaps they could do so in the order that I have just read out. Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD): No, I have nothing to declare. Extending emergency legislation is a significant step when it comes to individual liberty. For The Convener: Finally, Christine Grahame, do example, the committee has received several you have any relevant interests? submissions relating to the rights of children and Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, the impact that the extension of emergency Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP): No, I have legislation has on them. What is the justification for none. an extension of emergency powers at the moment? Professor Linda Bauld (University of Edinburgh): I have been invited to give evidence to the committee in order to provide a public health perspective. I do not have any expertise in the law or human rights, which I know are the issues at hand. We are still in the middle of a global crisis. We have 25 million cases globally and there have been more than 900,000 deaths. In Scotland, there have been more than 4,000 deaths and, as you have all heard from the Scottish Government recently, unfortunately, the number of cases here is rising again. In common with many countries, Scotland has many more months to run in terms of the public health consequences of dealing with the 3 9 SEPTEMBER 2020 4 new virus. It is understandable that states and committee. We could come back to that issue nations around the world have to use necessary later, or, if you like, we could address it just now. powers to enable the public health protection that The Convener: It would help if you could say a our population deserves to remain in place. few words about that issue now, given that we are Therefore, as long as the powers are considering it at the moment. proportionate and the needs and rights of all groups are considered, we have to recognise that Michael Clancy: I was interested to read the now is the time when we should be extending the Official Report of the debate that took place a appropriate parts of this legislation to help us deal couple of weeks ago, when Jeanne Freeman was with the on-going crisis. I hope that, by next before the committee. Professor Tomkins spring, we will be in a better place than we are in narrowed in on the introductory paragraph of the now. regulations that were then under consideration, talking about legislation being necessary and Sarah Booth (Law Society of Scotland): proportionate. He focused on the regulations being Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the the least restrictive available means of achieving committee this morning. the aim of Government. I think that “least The Scottish Human Rights Commission restrictive” is one component of proportionality. understands the need to take measures to protect Some have described it as whether or not the aim the population and deal with the on-going crisis. that is to be achieved is a legitimate aim— We believe that it is a fundamental principle of [Inaudible.]—legislation is used to achieve that human rights law that measures that impact on an aim. A component of that consideration would individual’s rights and freedoms should be lawful, include questions that the Government would ask necessary, proportionate and time limited. For itself before laying an order before the Parliament, those reasons, we have welcomed the Scottish such as why the rights are being restricted, what Government’s commitment to human rights in problem is being resolved, whether the restriction addressing the significant challenges of Covid-19. will lead to a reduction of the problem, whether a In particular, we welcome the commitment to less restrictive alternative exists and whether review the legislation and to lift restrictions as sufficient regard has been paid to the rights of the soon as they are deemed to be no longer people who are affected. necessary to protect against the coronavirus. Proportionality is a sum of many parts and not Michael Clancy (The Law Society of simply the “least restrictive” component. I am sure Scotland): Good morning. Thank you for that that the Government has that in mind, because the interesting question. Professor Bauld and Sarah consequences of getting it wrong could mean Booth have explained the framework. There is still action being taken against the Government for an on-going coronavirus crisis. It has not gone breaching human rights, so it will be cautious away, and the legislation that was enacted earlier about bringing forward orders in which the in the year still has a role to play in keeping proportionality aspect and other considerations society safe and ensuring that we are not exposed have not been taken into account. unduly to the virus. Various laws and subordinate orders have been passed by the Scottish 09:40 Parliament—I think that, as of yesterday, there had been a total of 64 regulations concerning Helen Martin (Scottish Trades Union coronavirus, which shows you the breadth of Congress): My point is similar to those of the activity that needs to be undertaken to keep us other witnesses. The reason we need emergency safe. powers to continue is that the crisis continues. In terms of the actions that people need to take, we The concept of proportionality has been still need members of the general public to take mentioned, with Sarah Booth mentioning the specific action in their lives and we need action to quartet of requirements that state that measures be taken in the workplace to put in place should be lawful, necessary, proportionate and mitigations that stop the spread of the virus. We time limited. The legislation is clearly lawful, as it need to continue to have some level of the powers has been properly scrutinised and passed; it is enacted, because it is not business as usual. necessary, because the Government deems it to be so as a result of the scientific evidence that it The Convener: My next question follows on has received; it is proportionate; and it is time from that. In lockdowns to date, the Scottish limited, with the regulations that are before the Government has variously used guidance or committee today indicating the time-limited nature regulations to direct the public.