Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Episode 3: Gurus Killed Yoga Jesal: Warning: This episode is really triggering because the content deals with sexual abuse and misconduct. (Moved up several lines) Tejal: He would have the youngest girls sleep in the quarters nearest to him. Jesal: That sounds like some R. Kelly shit right there. Tejal: This is -- yes. This is some R. Kelly Swami Muktananda shit. Tejal: Hello everyone. I'm Tejal. Jesal: And I'm Jesal. Tejal: And this is Yoga Is Dead. Jesal: We're two Indian American yoga teachers navigating the weird and tricky world of yoga. Tejal: Get read to hear our personal stories, thoughts, and research on who killed yoga. Grab some chai, a tall comfortable seat, and let's go. Tejal: Jesal, do you have any gurus? Jesal: I think I consider my dance teacher my guru? Tejal: Ooh. Bachata? Salsa? Jesal: [laughs] No. Just like many Indian American girls, I did Bharatanatyam almost every single week from when I was 5 to like 18 or 19. Tejal: Oh, Bharatanatyam. Classical South Indian dance? Jesal: Yep. And shout-out to all the New England ladies who did Bharatanatyam with Jasmine Shah! Woot woot! She's a little celebrity up there. Tejal: I'd like to see the demographics of how many of those New England Bharatanatyam students are listening to this podcast right now. Jesal: That would be amazing. Tejal: Yes. Well, since this is a yoga podcast -- Jesal: [laughs] Page 1 of 27 Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Tejal: What about a guru, like a spiritual teacher, a guide in all things, someone who you find influential. Anyone come to mind like that? Jesal: I don't really think I believe in those types of gurus. I have plenty of teachers, people I rely on for specific purposes like meditation or asana or dharma talks, or even teachers that have insight into business or philosophy or general teaching stuff, but I would really consider them mentors. I don't think I would use the word guru. Tejal: Okay. Well, let's clarify the purpose of this podcast. Did gurus kill yoga? ​ Jesal: Ooh. Tejal: And let's clarify what we're not talking about: gurus in terms of teachers or mentors, like you mentioned, that you rely on for movement practice or specific technical things or philosophical things. We're talking about the history and tradition of following a guru without question. The kind of guru that, for whatever reason, you admire and never admonish, that explains things to you that you never question. The guru that makes you feel whole and included in a way you've never felt before. The guru that gave you a sense of belonging and reminds you that they can also take it away with any hint of provocation. Jesal: That concept just gives me the shivers. [laughs] Tejal: Yeah. It's kind of scary just saying it. Jesal: Yeah. It makes me so uncomfortable. Tejal: Which is a good time to say this episode might be triggering for some. We talk about issues like sexual, emotional, physical abuse. Please be prepared. Jesal: I would never give up my power in that absolute, unquestioning way, ever. Tejal: So, let's do a little back and forth then. You say a name of a yoga school or religious tradition, and I say the name of a guru or powerful leader that was accused of some kind of abuse or misconduct, whether it be sexual, emotional, financial, or physical. All of these constitute an abuse of power. And looking at it from a yoga perspective, these leaders violated their vows of brahmacharya or ahimsa, aka celibacy or non-harming/nonviolence. Jesal: Okay, ready? Tejal: Ready as I'll ever be. Jesal: Ashtanga. Tejal: Pattabhi Jois. Page 2 of 27 Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Jesal: Iyengar. Tejal: B.K.S. himself. Jesal: Rajneesh movement. Tejal: Rajneesh himself, also known as Osho, some weird marketing thing. Jesal: They made a movie on that, or series. Tejal: Wild Wild Country on Netflix. Jesal: Right. Tejal: Very compelling. Jesal: Transcendental meditation. Tejal: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, also known as the Beatles'... guru. Jesal: Anusara. Tejal: John Friend. Jesal: Jivamukti. Tejal: Ruth Lauer Manenti. Jesal: Mahayana Buddhism. Tejal: Michael Roach. Jesal: Tantric Order of America. Tejal: Pierre Bernard, aka The Great Oom. Jesal: Siddha Yoga. Tejal: Swami Muktananda. Jesal: Zen Buddhism. Tejal: Eido Shimano and Richard Baker, just to name two in the U.S. Jesal: Kripalu. Page 3 of 27 Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Tejal: Amrit Desai had a scandal. Jesal: The Hare Krishnas. Tejal: Like literally a whole score of them apparently. Jesal: Kundalini. Tejal: Yogi Bhajan. Jesal: Shambhala. Tejal: Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche. Jesal: Rinpoche? [pronunciation] Tejal: Rinpoche? Jesal: I don't know. Tejal: We'll see. Jesal: And I think we missed another Iyengar teacher, like our lead teacher. Tejal: Let's see if I can say this properly: Manouso Manos. Jesal: Yeah. That's a lot of predators in the guru realm. Tejal: Yeah. I think we forgot one big one: Bikram. Jesal: Oh right. Tejal: Bikram Choudhury. Jesal: And this is just in the yoga community. This doesn't even include like religious or sub-religious leaders in India, which they have a lot of them. Tejal: And there are a lot of people not named here. Jesal: And this doesn't even begin to list all the swamis and babas and gurus in India that are just super charlatans or total frauds. I mean, people sincerely believe in a lot of these leaders. Tejal: Yeah. One big name, like Baba Ramdev. Page 4 of 27 Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Jesal: I don't think that he as at least yet been accused of sexual assault, but he has said some creepy and fraudulent things, not to mention, on record. Tejal: He's literally the most powerful TV guru in India. Jesal: Key: TV guru [laughs] Tejal: Yep. Jesal: Isn't he worth billions? Tejal: Yeah. At least that's what Forbes and The Times of India and Bloomberg have reported. How a guru builds an empire and is valued at billions is just something to ponder. Yet somehow he wants us to believe he's this poor - there's that word again - ascetic monk ​ ​ ​ who lives on an ashram and uses the money only to serve the poor. Jesal: But isn't that ashram like in Scotland? Tejal: God knows why. Jesal: Gods know why. ​ Tejal: That's right. Yep. I mean, my real problem with him isn't really the money, although that's a problem. Let's be honest. But, in theory you can still be a good person with lots of money. In theory. Jesal: Theoretically, right. Tejal: He has said a lot of things that are just fraudulent, and people are just taking it for face value, which is very terrifying. Jesal: Yeah. I mean he claims that pranayama can cure pretty much every disease in the world. I think he's even said - don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure he said that pranayama can cure AIDS and premature ejaculation. Aside from the usual, you know, hypertension and all those things. Tejal: He thinks that yoga should be taught in place of sex ed. WTMF! And he said publicly... this hurts. I mean, this whole episode is going to hurt a little. But he said publicly that he thinks homosexuality is a mental disorder and a bad habit, and he invited homosexuals to his ashram so he could cure them. Jesal: Yeah. WTF. Tejal: Someone with that many prejudices and is allied with the Hindu nationalist prime minister in India definitely has more yoga monsters under his mat. ​ ​ Page 5 of 27 Yoga is Dead Podcast Ep 3 Transcription Jesal: Yup. I don't think we've seen all of those monsters yet. Jesal: There's so many babas I can hardly name them, but I was watching Hasan Minhaj's show Patriot Act and - Tejal: Amazing edutainment show. God I love it. Jesal: Speaking of Hindu nationalism, he did an episode on the Indian elections and he talked about this crazy monk named Yogi Adityanath. He's also the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, and this guy, aside from being involved in politics, he's known for being an extreme Hindu nationalist and making hate speeches against religious minorities in India. And he also said - if men develop feminine traits they become gods, but if women develop masculine traits they become demons. Misogynist much? Tejal: You might think India is just full of yoga and acceptance, but these are serious issues in India that are continuing to happen in modern day, but I really hope that the place that ​ ​ our lineage and heritage and background and family is from can really get their shit together. Jesal: [laughs] Tejal: Because this is some depressing shit. Jesal: Yeah. And I mean, we haven't even talked about Sathya Sai Baba, who arguably, aside from Baba Ramdev, is like one of the biggest known babas in India. Or was, I should say. ​ ​ And he is like one of those rare figures you actually see worshiped in both East and West. And I looked him up - he's been accused of everything from sexual abuse, money laundering, fraud, and even murder. Tejal: Yeah. When we decided to talk about Sathya Sai Baba, it freaked me out a little bit because I recall his framed picture everywhere in homes, family friends' homes little ​ ​ … smiling guy with a fro wearing saffron colors and he's not above this.