Vol. 732 Tuesday No. 219 8 November 2011 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions Crime: Self-defence Homicide Economy: Monetary and Fiscal Policy Devolved Administrations: Financial Flexibility Somalia Procedure of the House: Seventh Select Committee Report Motion to Agree Procedure of the House: Eighth Select Committee Report Motion to Take Note Procedure of the House (Proposals 1 to 9) Motions to Resolve Protection of Freedoms Bill Second Reading Protection of Freedoms Bill Committal Motion Protection of Freedoms Bill Order of Consideration Motions Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (11th day) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. 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THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 117 Crime: Self-defence Homicide[8 NOVEMBER 2011] Crime: Self-defence Homicide 118 Lord Elystan-Morgan: Does the Minister accept House of Lords that the principle of self-defence, whereby a person is entitled to defend himself or any other person from Tuesday, 8 November 2011. unlawful attack by using no more force than is reasonably necessary, is well ensconced in our law, well understood 2.30 pm by juries, and is fair and clear? Furthermore, does he accept that the common law has enshrined this principle Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bristol. for a very long time; that it was spelt out in detail in the case of Palmer 40 years ago, and, indeed, enshrined in Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Crime: Self-defence Homicide Act 2008; and that any doubts that exist exist more in Question the minds of tabloid editors than of judges and lawyers? 2.37 pm Lord McNally: My Lords, as always, there is a great Asked By Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate deal of wisdom in what the noble Lord says—and a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they great deal of accuracy as well. We intend to provide will issue the police with further advice or guidance greater clarity with this new guidance and through the on self-defence homicide cases, in the light of recent clauses in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment decisions by the Crown Prosecution Service. of Offenders Bill, which will be coming before this House shortly. It is certainly true that, in so doing, we The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord will be bringing into statute what is already a very McNally): My Lords, the Ministry of Justice is working fixed principle in our common law. with the Home Office to update the code of practice made under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 Lord Bach: My Lords, Clause 131 of the Bill that to give the police further such guidance. A revised the Minister just mentioned is the one clause that code was published for consultation on 1 November. deals with this issue of self-defence. However, what is That consultation will end on 24 January. not clear about the law as it exists at present? That feeling is quite widespread across the House. Why Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: I thank the Minister does it need another clause in another long Bill? for that Answer. Does he agree that when burglars enter an occupied dwelling by criminal trespass and as Lord McNally: I think that the answer to that was a result one of the burglars is killed or seriously indicated in the previous question and by the fact that injured by a householder who is clearly defending the noble Lord has tabled this Question today. There himself, the public reaction generally is that the burglar are newspaper articles and general assertions made deserved everything that he got? It is clear that this about what is right or wrong. Under our common law, matter has to be seriously investigated, but is it really home owners, small shopkeepers and householders necessary, except in serious cases, for the police formally can use reasonable force to defend themselves or their to take the householder into custody and arrest him properties and will not be prosecuted. My right honourable with all the consequences that that involves, including friend the Lord Chancellor has made clear that he searching, placing in cells and so on? Is it not possible believes that the current law is broadly in the right for the police to use their discretion more often and to place. However, we believe that it does no harm, in the investigate the matter by inviting the householder to light of a lot of these questions and articles, to make it co-operate without formal arrest? After all, he is hardly clear in the forthcoming Bill. I think that it will do a likely to abscond. Does the Minister also agree that lot of good in establishing where people, including the recent, highly publicised decisions do not capture the police, are positioned in this. It will also deter any public mood? After all, liberty is precious and should thought that we are drifting towards any kind of not be removed lightly, particularly from an innocent endorsement of vigilantism or keeping a six o’clock victim. special under the pillow. This is a consolidation measure to clarify the law. Lord McNally: My Lords, I fully appreciate many of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, made in that question, which echoed a number of Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, will points that were raised in a debate initiated by my the Minister clarify the question from my noble friend noble friend Lord Blencathra on 20 October. Following Lord Mackenzie about the nature and circumstances that debate the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir in which formal arrest takes place? Starmer, wrote to me to meet some of the points made in that debate by the noble Lord and other Peers. The Lord McNally: I think that I have made that clear. director made the point that the CPS had explained We are consulting on guidance. However, the trend of that in certain circumstances the police may be advised the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, that an expedited, streamlined file is required following was that somehow policemen could make an instant initial investigations by the police. However, he made judgment. Circumstances are very varied in these situations it clear that the CPS reserves the right to ensure that and the Director of Public Prosecutions has made it adequate time is allowed to conduct a comprehensive clear—and I think that the draft guidance implies review of all the evidence available, in accordance with this—that although police are invited to use common the Code for Crown Prosecutors. sense and discretion when assessing circumstances, the 119 Crime: Self-defence Homicide[LORDS] Economy: Monetary and Fiscal Policy 120 [LORD MCNALLY] Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the Bank of England is Director of Public Prosecutions cannot abandon his completely sticking to its statutory responsibilities responsibilities in examining whether or not a crime and to the letter setting out its monetary policy mandate. has been committed and should be prosecuted. If the noble Lord, Lord Peston, would care to look at the latest commentaries in the Bank’s quarterly documents Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, will the Minister —he is nodding—he will see that they identify the make clear to the viewers and listeners from north of risks to inflation on the undershooting rather than the the border that all the answers he has given so far overshooting side. They identify a number of factors apply only to England, and perhaps also to Wales? that will reverse the trend in inflation early in 2012. That is why the Bank decided to recommend increased quantitative easing to the Treasury to ensure that there Lord Elystan-Morgan: Including Wales. is no risk of an undershoot on the inflation target. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Yes, including Wales, Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister agree thank you. Will the Minister consider having some with the recent report of the Treasury Select Committee discussion with his counterpart in Scotland about that, in a time of economic crisis, the buck stops with lessons learnt from Scots law, which very often—and, the Treasury, and that it should therefore be able to I think, in this case—is superior to English and Welsh direct the Bank in such circumstances? law? Lord Sassoon: My Lords, it is completely the case Lord McNally: I am very happy to have such that the Chancellor of the Exchequer sets the inflation discussions.