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For further information, contact Director, Hoover Institution Library and Archives, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-6010 © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University. o FIRinG Line Guests: Norman Lamont, Conservative minister of Parliament Neil Kinnock, Labour minister of Parliament Helene Middleweek Hayman, Labour minister of Parliament Subject: "THREE BRITISH ~1.P.'s AGAINST WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, JR." SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATION SECA PRESENTS ® FIRinG Line HOST: WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, JR. Guests: Norman Lamont, Conservative minister The FIRING LINE television series is a production of the Southern Educational of Parliament Communications Association, 928 Woodrow St., P.O. Box 5966, Columbia, S.C., 29250 and is transmitted through the facilities of the 'Public Broadcasting Service. Neil Kinnock, Labour minister of Production of these programs is made possible through a grant from the. of Parliament Corporation for Public Broadcasting. FIRING LINE can be seen and heard each Helene Middleweek Hayman, Labour minister week through public television and radio stations throughout the country. Check your local newspapers for channel and time in your area. of Parliament Subject: "THREE BRITISH M.P.'s AGAINST WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, JR." FIRING LINE is produced and directed by WARREN STEIBEL This is a transcript of the FIRING LINE program taped in London on February 4, 1975, and originally telecast on PBS on February 16, 1975. SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATION © Board of Trustees of the L land Stanford Jr. University. MR. BUCKLEY: Six months have gone by, it is time again for the semiannual shift in roles, the purpose of which is to inflict on the host of FIRING LINE what he is free during the rest of the year to inflict unto others. I can only hope tha~ our guests today will follow the exemplary standards of courte­ sy, understanding, and fairplay for which I am celebrated. We have with us here in London three young members of Parliament, two socialists and one conservative. The conservative is Mr. Norman Lamont, elected in May, 1972. He was educated at Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge, where he studied economics, served as president of the Cambridge Union, and as chairman of the University Conservative Association, He has served also as chairman of the Bow Group, a conservative research organization designed to build the intellectual case for the Tory party. Manifestly, there is work left to do. Mr. Neil Kinnock is a Labour member from South Wales, whose principal sponsor is the General Transport Union. He was educated at the University of Wales, where he specialized in history and industrial relations. He is an activist in a number of causes and a writer for the left weekly Tribune. He will be visiting the United States this spring as a guest of the State Depart­ ment. And finally, our old friend, Helene Middleweek, who has appeared on this program dozens of times over the years. Since last appearing, she has (al become Mrs. Helene Middleweek Hayman, (bl become a member of Parliament, where she occupies the seat vacated by Mr. Enoch Powell, and I wish I could add (cl" has become a responsible citizen, but she is still a socialist. Mrs. Hayman had a distinguished career at Cambridge, majoring in law, and serving, like Mr. Lamont, as president of the Cambridge Union. Mrs. Hayman. MRS. HAYMAN: I'm very interested just in what you said now about the normal,. courteous way in which you cannot reconcile socialism and responsibility, why it is that you seem so incapable of accepting that people can, in all sincerity, analyze problems on a world level or on a national level as in need of a solu­ tion which your own particular philosophy does not give them, which they think © 1975 SOUTHERN EDUCATIONAL a different philosophy, a different set of practices would do, and that they strive democratically to persuade other people that these are the means that COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATION would be better at solving those problems and that they, in goodwill and with good heart, attempt solutions through those particular means. I think that you always tend to juxtapose communism and conservatism, and never see any possibility of democratic socialism. I'd like to know why. MR. BUCKLEY: Well, I've never doubted the sincerity of socialists, and I would even acknowledge the qualitative difference between those who sincerely want to dominate my life and those who insincerely want to dominate my life. But ultimately it seems to me that the victi"m of a socialist society is a victim in either case. Socialism is about the achievement of power over other people; conservatism is a quest for a society in which the people are left, as substantially as possible, to exercise their own decisions. And, under the circumstances, while, as I say, I would prefer to be governed by sincere socialists rather than insincere socialists, in the last analysis, both of them are getting in my way. MR. KINNOCK: You're afraid of being dominated, Mr. Buckely. MR. BUCKLEY: Yes. MR. KINNOCK: But what you don't concede, as far as I can see in any of your performances or writings, is that the philosophy by which and for which you stand, of conservative capitalism, contradicts all the tenets of freedom that any libertarian would hold to be self-evident in that there is a subtle and unlegislated control that every employer can have over his employee and, indeed, an even more subtle and even less legislated control that the great corporations exercise, even among democratic governments, that can control and guide your life. Now, not so much particularly your life, because you are a self-confident, well-educated, well-heeled American citizen, but for the overwhelming majority of your fellow American citizens and my fellow © Board of Trustees of the I land Stanford Jr. University. men who vote more money than in fact we tax, leaving us in this current state British citizens,.and indeed most in what we call the free Western world, they of economic devastation. do not have the ~lberty that comes from the kind of aggressive self-confidence But, of course, our devastation is beyond the dreams of anything that that you and I m1ght have as public practitioners. Now, that kind of control most people in socialist societies will ever realize. I deeply object to and I think that it is a great deal worse than even the MR. LAMONT: But we have exactly the same argument in this country. Our level picture of socialism that you present. But you don't concede that conserva­ of inflation is in fact around the three percent mark and we think that in tive capitalism seeks to control. this country that is-- MR. BUCKLEY: I attempt to defend a political philosophy that acknowledges MR. BUCKLEY: Of unemployment. public realities. It's certainly true that if I apply for a job with a London MR. LAMONT: Unemployment, sorry. Unemployment is around the three percent newspaper and the editor tells me to cover this event, I am in a sense being mark; yours is around seven percent. But we would have exactly the same ·dominated by his wishes. If I were to say to him, "No, I eschew that event arguments that you have about the number of people changing jobs, the number and wi 11 cover this event," he woul d fi re me. of people who don't want work. And I must say, my feelings are very much on Now, there is that kind of dependence in every society and I acknowledge the side of you in this argument. it. The question, however, arises: In what kind of a society does the indi­ But it does seem to me, looking at what you've written about this that vidual ·have the maximum mobility? It seems to me plainly in the society in ~ou~tries f~ce ~ ~imilar co~tradiction which one is able to choose among as many alternatives as possible; therefore, ?ur two very or a very similar problem the society in which the private sector, as distinguished from the public 1n that 1t 1S becomlng 1ncreas1ngly diff1cult to get democratic electorates to ~ccept t~e higher level ?f unem~loyment that is necessary for a prolonged sector, dominates, because within the private sector there is a plurality of per10d of t1me to make any 1mpact 1n the rate of inflation. When you take agencies. In the public sector there is only one. deflationary policies, it's always the unemployment that appears first and it . We were talking ~bout the dominance of the great corporations. YOll know, 1f the great corporat1ons were all that powerful, you'd think one of the first appears fo~ a year be~ore you get any impact on inflation at all. And reading things they would do is maintain the value of their own equity on the stock what you say and read1ng what people say about our economic situation here market, which they fail to do. I'm beginning to wonder whether democracies actually do have the willpower: MR.