PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee EUROPEAN UNION (REFERENDUM) BILL Sixth Sitting Wednesday 11 September 2013 CONTENTS CLAUSES 4 AND 5 agreed to. New clause considered. Bill to be reported, without amendment. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £5·00 PBC (Bill 011) 2013 - 2014 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Sunday 15 September 2013 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 227 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 228 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: †MR JOE BENTON,ANNETTE BROOKE,JIM SHERIDAN,MR GARY STREETER † Bain, Mr William (Glasgow North East) (Lab) † Reynolds, Emma (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab) † Burley, Mr Aidan (Cannock Chase) (Con) † Sheerman, Mr Barry (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Campbell, Mr Gregory (East Londonderry) (DUP) Smith, Miss Chloe (Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet † Dowd, Jim (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab) Office) † Ellwood, Mr Tobias (Bournemouth East) (Con) Vaz, Keith (Leicester East) (Lab) † Hart, Simon (Carmarthen West and South † Wharton, James (Stockton South) (Con) Pembrokeshire) (Con) † Williamson, Gavin (South Staffordshire) (Con) † Hopkins, Kelvin (Luton North) (Lab) † Horwood, Martin (Cheltenham) (LD) Kate Emms, Committee Clerk † Latham, Pauline (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) † Lidington, Mr David (Minister for Europe) † attended the Committee 229 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS European Union (Referendum) Bill 230 sum of money that the alternative vote referendum Public Bill Committee cost. However, that referendum coincided with the local elections that year, which reduced the cost. It would be Wednesday 11 September 2013 helpful for colleagues on both sides of the House—and both sides of the argument—to have a clearer estimation [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] of what the cost of a referendum will be if it does not coincide with another election. European Union (Referendum) Bill Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure Clause 4 to serve under your chairmanship once again, Mr Benton. EXPENDITURE The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East Question proposed, that the clause stand part of the has made some telling points about the potential costs Bill. and the assumptions that are being made in the presentation of the Bill, as if the referendum would have a completely 8.55 am smooth passage, with everyone co-operating fully.Different Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): scenarios need to be explored to establish whether we It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship yet have taken on board all the cost implications of the again, Mr Benton. You have done the hard yards in this possible referendum. Committee by chairing the first sitting. That seems like As the hon. Lady quite rightly pointed out, we have a long time ago now, but I want to put on the record my discussed some arrangements in Committee but that thanks for your patience and guidance. has not resulted in amendments to the Bill. If there were Clause 4 is about the expenditure provisions for holding changes to the franchise, in particular a different electoral a referendum in the future. The Opposition do not seek register for the referendum—if we decide to extend the to amend the clause at this stage. Although the Government vote to European Union citizens and to make special have not yet calculated the exact sum of money a arrangements for Gibraltar and foreign citizens different referendum is likely to cost, during the money resolution from those for Westminster, European and local elections— debate in the House the Minister for Europe quoted the there might be additional costs with the registration sum of £75.3 million, which was the cost of the alternative process, and costs to local government and returning vote system referendum. officers to carry out the process. It will be interesting to We will return to the details of the Bill on Report. hear the comments of the right hon. Member for Aylesbury However, if the Bill were amended in the ways that we on those points. have sought to amend it in this Committee, it would In particular, regarding Gibraltar, the right hon. have cost implications. For example, we discussed at Gentleman has clearly suggested that he is minded to length whether the franchise of the referendum should look at arrangements that would allow the people of be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds. That would have a Gibraltar a vote on their own future in the European cost implication. We discussed whether the question Union. We have had every indication, though no should include another option. For example, in 1975, amendment, that that is a shared ambition among all during the consultation on the White Paper, it was parties. However, would the Government of Gibraltar asked whether there should be an additional question, be expected to defray the cost of the referendum, given which would be “should the UK remain a member of that they had not requested it? That is an interesting the EEA?” It is open to colleagues to seek to amend the discussion to be had. Is the right hon. Gentleman able Bill on Report. I simply want to put on the record that if to advise us on the likely cost of holding the referendum such amendments were made there would be cost in Gibraltar if its Government are not willing to defray implications because the counting of the vote would that cost? Has he had any discussions with the Government become much more complex. of Gibraltar on the referendum and its likely cost and We have discussed whether the franchise should be timing? extended to Gibraltar. I am firmly of the opinion that I want to ask a further question in the same vein. Has Gibraltarians should have a say about whether Gibraltar the right hon. Gentleman had any discussions with the and the UK remain a member of the European Union. devolved and regional authorities in the United Kingdom However, again, there would be cost implications to about the cost of carrying out the referendum in their including Gibraltar. particular jurisdictions? Has he had discussions with Finally, we discussed yesterday, in relation to an the Welsh Assembly Government, the Mayor of London amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Cheltenham, or the Administration in Northern Ireland about the how a referendum and an election could be combined. possible cost of the question and the administration of The hon. Gentleman used the alternative vote referendum the referendum in those areas? as a guide to how that could happen. If the referendum In particular, has the right hon. Gentleman had were not held on the same day as a local, European or discussions with the Scottish Government? We have national election, the cost of the referendum would be explored various scenarios of what could be the much higher than the figure quoted by the Minister for uncomfortable interaction between the Scottish referendum Europe during the money resolution debate. and the proposed referendum. Let us imagine that, in Before we return to this matter on the Floor of the 2014, Scotland votes for independence and enters a House—I am not asking for an answer to this question protracted period of negotiation with the United Kingdom, today—it would be instructive if the Europe Minister the EU, NATO and other international organisations—I would set out how much a referendum would cost if it do not know; I am not an expert in the matter, and did not coincide with another election. He gave us the perhaps other hon. Members are better informed. It is a 231 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2013 European Union (Referendum) Bill 232 shame that the hon. Member for Glasgow North East, It is more difficult to give even an estimate for what a who is well informed on such issues, is not in his place referendum would cost if it were held on a day when today. other elections, whether local or regional, were not I am not aware of what the likely timing of the actual taking place. We do not have a precedent for that since moment of independence will be if Scotland goes ahead the 1975 referendum on staying in the European Union. and votes for it in 2014. It is quite conceivable that those Until the AV referendum, other referendums in the protracted international negotiations would still be ongoing United Kingdom in the past 15 years have been mini- when the proposed referendum took place. That would referendums, taking place in parts only of the United be an interesting scenario. We would be voting on Kingdom, and not in the country as a whole. Clearly, English, Welsh and Northern Irish membership of the there would be an increased cost and, if the Bill becomes European Union, but not on Scottish membership—that law, we would need to do more detailed work on the question, logically, ought to have a separate referendum. estimates. The Scottish Government might fully intend Scotland My central point is that the Bill is about the principle to be a member of the European Union regardless of of giving the British people the final say.