John Seigenthaler Oral History Interview – JFK #2, 2/21/1966 Administrative Information Creator: John Seigenthaler Interviewer: Ronald J. Grele Date of Interview: February 21, 1966 Place of Interview: Nashville, Tennessee Length: 171 pp. Biographical Note Seigenthaler was aide to Robert F. Kennedy during the 1960 Presidential campaign and Administrative Assistant to the Attorney General, Department of Justice (1961). This interview focuses on the activities of the 1960 presidential campaign, covering issues such as campaign expenditures, the vice presidency, campaign volunteers, citizens’ groups, Civil Rights, the labor and minority votes, and Southern support, among other issues. Access Restrictions No restrictions. Usage Restrictions According to the deed of gift signed August 29, 1986, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. 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Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings. Suggested Citation John Seigenthaler, recorded interview by Ronald J. Grele, February 21, 1966, (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program. John Seigenthaler JFK #2 Table of Contents Page Topic 125 Labor legislation 128 Wisconsin primary 129 Issue of John F. Kennedy’s Catholicism 133 Campaign expenditures 134 Kennedy-Humphrey debate 145 1960 Democratic National Convention 154 Vice Presidential nominees 157 Lyndon B. Johnson’s press conference 162 Campaign finances 166 Nixon’s television show 173 Campaign volunteers 178 Citizens’ groups 190 George Smathers’ Southern organization 196 Harry Belafonte endorsing John F. Kennedy 204 Campaign structure 212 State organizations 224 Civil Rights 232 Martin Luther King, Jr.’s arrest and denial of bond 246 Women in the campaign 249 The labor vote 257 The minority vote 262 General impression of the Nixon-Lodge campaign 276 Southern support 283 Reasons why John F. Kennedy lost Tennessee in the 1960 election 293 Robert Kennedy’s meeting with Harry Truman Second Oral History Interview with John Seigenthaler February 21, 1966 Nashville, Tennessee By Ronald J. Grele For the John F. Kennedy Library GRELE: On the labor legislation, the Kennedy-Ervin Bill and the bill that eventually became the Landrum-Griffin, do you recall any details of legislative passage? SEIGENTHALER: Personally, no. I remember the time that was going on and they were trying to get the support for that, that of course the President [John F. Kennedy], then the Senator, was very active in the effort to get it passed, the bill that bore his name. And he was working himself with a number of senators and I remember with a number [-125-] of House members, Edith Green, Topper Thompson [Frank Thompson, Jr.] was active in that, and others. And there were a number of conversations and Bob [Robert F. Kennedy] was actively engaged in advising him on that and in working with the other members of the House and Senate who were involved in getting legislation passed. GRELE: Did John Kennedy or Robert Kennedy ever express to you their opinion of the McClellan Bill of Rights? The Labor Bill of Rights? SEIGENTHALER: Well, I think they were – I don’t think they were ever in a position of knocking the McClellan Bill and there were some phases of Senator McClellan’s [John L. McClellan] that everybody agreed to. I don’t believe they ever expressed any opinion on it to me, at least. Generally it was a very positive effort to pass the legislation that was pending that they [-126-] had introduced and that they were hopeful that they could get through. GRELE: Did they ever comment on the strategy of organized labor in that legislative fight? SEIGENTHALER: Well, I know there was another bill. Who was the House member from California? Labor was very active in trying to get that bill passed. GRELE: The Elliot Bill? SEIGENTHALER: I’m not sure. It was a weaker bill, a much softer bill, and certain elements of labor were favorable to it and wanted to get it through. Again their position in all this was to push as hard as they could for the bill that they felt meet the need and work as hard as they could to get the force for that. I don’t remember that there was really any attack on either bill. Really the strategy was to enlist the force for [-127-] this bill because it will do the best job. GRELE: Do you ever recall hearing of discussions with the Senator… SEIGENTHALER: Whelan. It seems to me Whelan – was there a Congressman Whelan? GRELE: Cohelan [Jeffrey Cohelan]? SEIGENTHALER: Cohelan maybe and maybe Whelan too. Cohelan – maybe it was, yes. GRELE: Do you ever recall any discussions or conversations that might have taken place with Andy Biemiller [Andrew Biemiller] over this bill? SEIGENTHALER: No, I don’t. GRELE: Moving on now, in an earlier tape you said that you had gone into the Wisconsin primary to cover that primary? SEIGENTHALER: Yes. GRELE: Were you covering it for The Tennessean [The Nashville Tennessean] or were you covering it for the President? [-128-] SEIGENTHALER: I was covering it for The Tennessean. Just to give you that background, I had come back from Harvard from a Nieman Fellowship. I had planned to come back in 1959, but then the opportunity arose to help work on The Enemy Within and that took about five or six months. And so it actually was pretty close to 1960 when I got back here to work. Then the 1960 primaries came on, and I was working here with the paper, and I went to cover the primaries both in Wisconsin and in West Virginia on assignment from the paper, not for any extended period, maybe a few weeks trip into both areas once or twice. GRELE: What was your impression of the issues in Wisconsin? SEIGENTHALER: Of course the big issue there – in Wisconsin as it was later in West Virginia – was how much impact the Senator’s religion would have on the outcome. As much as [-129-] anything else, it was hard organization work. The people who were there who were working were more interested in organization – getting a solid organization among the various factions in Wisconsin – than they were active in or concerned about the issues. They knew that Humphrey [Hubert H. Humphrey] was going to be pretty popular and that those western districts were going to get some overwash from Minnesota and Humphrey would be popular there. Really I think it was more – from where I viewed it – a campaign dedicated to hardnose organization work than it was to enunciation of the issues. They key overriding issue, although it was somewhat hidden, was whether a Catholic could be president. GRELE: Did you talk to either John Kennedy or Robert Kennedy while you were in Wisconsin? SEIGENTHALER: Oh, sure. I talked to the Senator just briefly because he was completely wound up [-130-] in campaigning. Just sort of a hello, goodbye thing; but I talked to Bob at length. GRELE: What was his concept of the problem in Wisconsin first and then West Virginia? SEIGENTHALER: Well, it was just a day-to-day business of getting the people who were available involved for the Senator and to get the broadest possible exposure for the Senator. I think he felt that this was the first step toward winning the presidency, and he devoted almost every waking hour to that. He was making speeches and working – but fewer speeches I thought than he was actively engage in the organization work. Kenny O’Donnell [Kenneth P. O’Donnell] was very active at that time. Pat Lucey [Patrick J. Lucey] was very active. Ivan Nestingen was very active. Clem Zablocki [Clement J. Zablocki], the Congressman, was very active. I guess Lucey is now Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin. [-131-] Ivan – I don’t know if Ivan is still in HEW or not. But I remember they represented different points of view in Wisconsin within the Democratic Party – Nestingen and Lucey. GRELE: What do you mean different points of view? SEIGENTHALER: Well, I think they represented different factions within the Democratic Party in Wisconsin, and I think Bob’s big effort was to get maximum support from all the factions within the state and to keep them happy and to keep them interested in the Senator; keep those different groups from coming to a collision with each other over their own personal problems, their own personal interests.