IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 12 March 2019 1 Tuesday, 12 March 2019 1 was looking for a diary secretary? 2 (10.00 am) 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Day 7 of 3 Q. Which you thought was in 1983? 4 this public inquiry. Mr Altman? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR ALTMAN: Good morning, chair. The first witness, sitting 5 Q. But you couldn't remember precisely which month. You 6 in the witness box, is Mrs Susan Hogg. 6 thought about September? 7 MRS SUSAN HOGG (sworn) 7 A. It was probably September, yes. 8 Examination by MR ALTMAN 8 Q. You took the position, ending up working as a diary 9 MR ALTMAN: Sit down, please. 9 secretary for Peter Morrison from between 1983 and 1985? 10 A. Thank you. 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Give us your name. 11 Q. What were your functions as his diary secretary? 12 A. Susan Hogg. 12 A. Well, in those days, it was a paper diary, so it was 13 Q. Susan Hogg. Mrs Hogg, I want to ask you, please, for 13 a little bit more complicated than it is presently, but 14 a little assistance about what you did by way of 14 I was responsible for organising all of his departmental 15 occupation in the 1980s? 15 commitments, including regional visits and all of his 16 A. I worked for Sir Peter Morrison as his diary secretary 16 many meetings that he had throughout the day with 17 in the Department of Employment. 17 various people. 18 Q. I think you began working as a civil servant in the 18 Q. Help us about this, Mrs Hogg, if you would: where were 19 Health and Safety Executive? 19 you based? 20 A. In '77, yes. 20 A. I was based in Caxton House on Tothill Street. 21 Q. I am simply taking this from a statement you made to the 21 Q. So in London? 22 inquiry in December last year. You recalled -- I'm 22 A. In London, yes. 23 looking at your paragraph 2, and for the chair and 23 Q. Between 1983 and 1985, am I right in thinking that 24 panel, it is behind tab 1 in the file. You remembered 24 Peter Morrison was a minister? 25 receiving a phone call saying that one of the ministers 25 A. That's correct, Minister of State for Employment. Page 1 Page 2 1 Q. Employment at that time? 1 A. Yes. 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- a habit which increased and developed during the time 3 Q. I think you found yourself working long hours? 3 you worked for him? 4 A. Very. It was regular that we'd start work before 4 A. No, he was like it from word go. 5 8.00 am and until at least 11.00 at night, and sometimes 5 Q. You say, looking at your paragraph 6, that he moved in 6 I signed out of the late book as late as 2.00 in the 6 very high circles? 7 morning and still had to be back at my desk for 8.00 the 7 A. Yes. 8 following morning, and that's why you spend such a short 8 Q. The Duke of Westminster, Prince Charles among his 9 time in those kind of roles, because it really is very 9 friends? 10 difficult to sustain more than two years. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If you don't mind me asking, just so we get a fix on it, 11 Q. And his sister was lady-in-waiting to the Queen? 12 I think you were in your early 20s at the time? 12 A. Yes, she still is. 13 A. I was, yes. 13 Q. You spoke about his temper, though. Was there something 14 Q. You say, and I'm looking at your paragraph 5, that you 14 that you particularly remembered? 15 got on very well with him and he was kind to you, 15 A. Yeah. He used to get very upset. He was regularly 16 especially when your father passed away? 16 called on by Buckingham Palace to escort 17 A. He was -- yes. 17 Princess Margaret and he used to get very distressed at 18 Q. But you say he had some serious issues? 18 that and he'd be in a bad mood most of the day if that 19 A. Yes. He clearly had an alcohol problem. He used to 19 is what his duties were that day. 20 start drinking at lunchtime and he'd drink a bottle of 20 Q. What was the source of his distress? 21 vodka quite easily by teatime, and then he'd start 21 A. I just don't think he liked doing that job, but he was 22 drinking whisky, but he also smoked very heavily as 22 regularly called to escort her. 23 well. In those days, you could smoke in the office. 23 Q. Do you remember, although not the date itself, but an 24 Q. Was that something that you became aware of from the off 24 occasion when Peter Morrison received a phone call -- 25 or was it -- 25 I'm looking again at your statement at paragraph 7 Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 12 March 2019 1 now -- demanding that he go to Downing Street -- 1 Michael Quinlan, Permanent Secretary at Employment? 2 A. Yes. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- in order to see the Prime Minister? 3 Q. And also the Chief Whip? 4 A. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Although you can't recall the date precisely, you say 5 Q. Now, during your time working for him, did you discover 6 that your father died in November 1984 and you thought 6 that he had a friendship with Eliza Manningham-Buller, 7 it was just before that? 7 who was to become director-general of MI5? 8 A. Yes. It was clearly something very serious because he 8 A. Yes. It was actually phone calls that -- he used to 9 was demanded -- he had to go to Downing Street 9 phone us when he got home at night, and regularly 10 instantly, and he came back in a very foul mood, and 10 I would hear him saying -- and there would be giggling 11 shortly afterwards, I recall that he was then taken in 11 in the background, and he'd be saying, "Stop it, Eliza, 12 to see Sir Michael Quinlan, who was the Permanent 12 stop it". Well, I didn't know who Eliza was until she 13 Secretary -- 13 actually visited the department. 14 Q. At the Education Department? 14 Q. Pause there for a moment, Mrs Hogg. It may be me. You 15 A. -- at the Department of Employment, yes. 15 say it was when he got home at night or regularly -- 16 Q. Oh, Employment? 16 forgive me. The transcript is moving up. It is 17 A. Yes. And I also remember quite clearly, again around 17 something about "he used to phone us"? 18 the same time, within days of each other, him having to 18 A. Yes. 19 go to see the Chief Whip. So it was clear something had 19 Q. What do you mean by that? 20 happened, but we weren't knowledgeable as to what had 20 A. He used to phone into the office to make sure -- because 21 happened. 21 what -- how he worked, his pattern of work was that he'd 22 Q. So he'd been to see the Prime Minister sometime 22 leave the office possibly about 5.00 in the evening, 23 before November 1984 when your father passed away? 23 he'd go home and have his dinner and then he'd come back 24 A. Yes. 24 into the office sometimes at 11.00 at night. 25 Q. Came back in a bad mood. Around the same time sees 25 Q. Pause there, if you would. You told us you worked in Page 5 Page 6 1 Tothill Street? 1 Q. -- and you mention in your statement there'd be 2 A. Yes. 2 giggling? 3 Q. Which is in Westminster? 3 A. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 4 Q. So it was a chummy sort of phone call, you assumed it 5 Q. Where was home for him? 5 was Eliza Manningham-Buller? 6 A. Chester Street in Belgravia. 6 A. I didn't assume it was her at the time. 7 Q. So not too far away? 7 Q. But since? 8 A. No. 8 A. It was only when I found out that it was 9 Q. So he'd go home for dinner and he'd return to the office 9 Eliza Manningham-Buller -- I didn't know what she did 10 where you would still be working. What sort of time in 10 for an occupation. I actually -- at the time, because 11 the evening? 11 I was innocent and young, I thought she was his 12 A. 11.00, 12.00, regularly that happened. 12 girlfriend. 13 Q. Was it at that time of night you're telling us he used 13 Q. Okay. How was it you heard these phone calls? Were you 14 to receive these phone calls? 14 in the same office as him or -- 15 A.