LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 8055 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Thursday, 7 June 2007 The Council continued to meet at half-past Two o'clock MEMBERS PRESENT: THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN HSU LAI-TAI, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN IR DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, S.B.S., S.B.ST.J., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, S.C., J.P. THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE BERNARD CHAN, G.B.S., J.P. 8056 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG, G.B.S. THE HONOURABLE WONG YUNG-KAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, S.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LI FUNG-YING, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE AUDREY EU YUET-MEE, S.C., J.P. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 8057 THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, M.H. THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT THE HONOURABLE LI KWOK-YING, M.H., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE DANIEL LAM WAI-KEUNG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HOK-MING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C. THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG PROF THE HONOURABLE PATRICK LAU SAU-SHING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT JINGHAN CHENG THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHI-KIN THE HONOURABLE TAM HEUNG-MAN 8058 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 MEMBERS ABSENT: DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, G.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LUI MING-WAH, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP THE HONOURABLE MA LIK, G.B.S., J.P. PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING: DR THE HONOURABLE SARAH LIAO SAU-TUNG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT AND WORKS THE HONOURABLE STEPHEN LAM SUI-LUNG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE: MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL MS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MRS VIVIAN KAM NG LAI-MAN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 8059 BILLS Committee Stage CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): A quorum is not present now. Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber. (After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber) CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): A quorum is now present. The meeting now starts. Members, I believe you have all received the circular issued by the Secretariat on my instruction this morning, stating that if the items on the Agenda cannot be finished today, the meeting will continue at 9 am sharp tomorrow. I would like to point out here that this is an arrangement on meeting time which is a procedural arrangement the President must made. However, this will not affect the length or the number of times Members would like to speak, which is at Members' discretion. Yesterday, some Members mistook that this arrangement on meeting time was made to require Members to shorten the debate. I believe Members were only joking. But I think putting this on record today will be more appropriate. When the meeting was suspended yesterday, I saw Mr Albert HO raise his hand, so I will now call upon Mr Albert HO to speak. MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Chairman, in fact, I know we have spent a lot of time on the discussion of this amendment. I did not intend to speak originally, but after I heard Mrs Selina CHOW's criticisms against us yesterday, I think I must make a response. If I have not taken her point wrongly, Mrs Selina CHOW said yesterday that if we insisted on including this condition in the legal framework, we were showing a lack of respect to the current contract signed by the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation (KCRC) and the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL), 8060 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 breaking the consensus reached in the contract. In other words, we would have failed to respect the spirit of contract. I am really astonished. For there is no reason that Mrs Selina CHOW, who has a wealth of working experience, should say something like this. She may put forth numerous reasons to disagree with this, and I think some of the reasons are worthy of respect and debate, but for this one, I really find it hard to understand. Why? We all know that in respect of the contract concerned, it will not come into effect unless the legislation seeking to set up the framework is passed by the Legislative Council. That is to say, this legal framework is a prerequisite for the contract to come into effect. So, when the contract is submitted to the Legislative Council, we should fulfil our obligation to examine how the interest of the public, including that of passengers, all relevant parties and stakeholders, can be safeguarded, if the contract is to be brought into effect under a legal framework. This is our responsibility. Does it mean that once the contract they signed is submitted to the Legislative Council, we have to put a stamp on it? Does stamping the contract mean respecting the spirit of contract? In what way is this reasonable? Actually, regarding this contract, there are both merits and demerits in various aspects, and one of our requests is the setting up of a fund, which will be conducive to the overall railway development of Hong Kong in the future. This is our consideration. We think that if the two railway corporations consider the conditions under the framework acceptable, they may engage in further negotiation upon the enactment of the legislation. In respect of the contract, there should be room for further discussion and the inclusion of additional conditions. It should not override the power of the Legislative Council to examine legislation. Still less should we accept it wholesale. Therefore, I hope Members will understand that, today, in this Chamber, our obligation is to examine thoroughly what kind of legal framework should be provided for this contract, what conditions should be included to protect the interest of the public, particularly that of passengers and stakeholders to whom we have to pay attention. Thus, I strongly oppose the remarks made by Mrs Selina CHOW last night. MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Chairman, of course, I am not saying that any contract can override the Legislative Council. However, I have to point out one thing. If it is presumed that the Government has not made any undertaking or agreement throughout the entire negotiation, and that substantial LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 7 June 2007 8061 changes to issues discussed and agreed by the Government and the railway corporations can be made, I think, the difference of opinion between the Democratic Party and we in the Liberal Party probably lies here. They think that setting aside 3% of the profit is a simple matter and that 3% is only a meagre amount, so there is no reason that such a change cannot be made. They consider they definitely have the right to make such a change. However, we think that as the Government has already discussed the overall financial arrangement with the railway corporations, whereas the Fund now in question will alter the major component of that arrangement, the enactment of such a provision will have significant impact on the overall financial arrangement, making it completely different from the original agreement the Government reached with the railway corporations. In that event, it will be tantamount to telling the Government that the issues it have agreed with the railway corporations originally are no longer valid, and that it should discuss them all over again. In other words, negotiations have to be started afresh and agreements already reached with the railway corporations have to be changed completely. Certainly, Members may say that we are empowered to do so. No one ever say that the Legislative Council has no power to do that.