MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT Thursday 3 June 1999 (Afternoon) Volume 1 No 6 £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2000. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Copyright Unit, Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Stationery Office Ltd. Her Majesty’s Stationery Office is independent of and separate from the company now trading as The Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body publications. CONTENTS Thursday 3 June 1999 Debates Col. DEVOLUTION ............................................................................................................................ 204 Motions moved—[Henry McLeish]—and agreed to. The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish) ................................... 204 Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) ......................................................................... 208 Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con) .................................................................................. 211 Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West) ........................................................................................... 213 Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab) ...................................................................................... 214 Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green) ......................................................................................... 215 Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD) ............................................................... 216 Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP) ................................................... 216 Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD) ................................................................................ 218 Henry McLeish ..................................................................................................................... 219 SCOTTISH ADJACENT WATERS BOUNDARIES ............................................................................. 224 Motion moved—[Ross Finnie]. Amendment moved—[Richard Lochhead]. Amendment moved—[Euan Robson]. The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie) ........................................................................ 224 Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP) ................................................................. 229 Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD) ............................................................... 232 Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP) ...................................................................... 234 Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con) ............................................................. 237 Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD) ............................................................................................... 239 Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP) ..................................................................... 240 Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)...................................................................... 241 George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD) .................................................................................... 242 Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)........................................................................ 242 Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con) ......................................................................... 244 Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP) ........................................................................... 246 Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) ......................................... 247 Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) ................................................................ 247 Richard Lochhead ............................................................................................................... 249 The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson) ..................................... 249 DECISION TIME ......................................................................................................................... 253 203 3 JUNE 1999 204 Scottish Parliament Devolution Thursday 3 June 1999 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The first item of business is a debate on the draft orders as (Afternoon) detailed in motions S1M-28 and S1M-29 in the name of Mr Henry McLeish: [THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public meeting at 14:30] Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): On a approved. point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. Could That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order you give me some advice on procedural matters? 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be They arise out of the message from the Presiding approved. Officer in business bulletin No 7. According to that The debate is scheduled to end at 4 pm and will very thoughtful message—I am not sucking up— be followed by a debate on motion S1M-19 in the Mr Gorrie’s motion on the Holyrood Parliament site name of Mr Ross Finnie on the Scottish adjacent is unlikely to be taken until after the Parliamentary waters boundaries, and the amendments thereto. Bureau has met. I ask the First Minister, or the That in turn will be followed at 5 pm by decision person who is sitting in his chair, for an assurance time, when questions on all three motions and the that no more public contracts will be signed until amendments will be put. the Parliament has had the chance to see a review of the current position. As in yesterday’s debate, Mr McLeish will formally move only the first of the motions at this The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George stage but will speak on both. I also invite other Reid): The Holyrood project is a responsibility of members to speak on either motion, or both. I will the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. The ask Mr McLeish formally to move his second appropriate course for the member to take is motion before questions are put at decision time. under rule 13.9 of standing orders: to lodge a At this stage I do not propose to set any time limit question to the Presiding Officer on the matter. for members’ speeches during the first debate. I Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): May may, however, review that position towards the I too seek some procedural advice from you? end of the time allocated if a large number of Yesterday a number of us pressed the Minister for members are still waiting to speak. Enterprise and Lifelong Learning on the issue of the publication of concordats. We were told that it 14:32 was unclear when they would be published. This The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong morning, I read in The Herald details about one of Learning (Henry McLeish): Before going into the the concordats, in relation to the Foreign and details of the two orders, I will try to put them into Commonwealth Office—a concordat and context. The white paper “Scotland’s Parliament” gentleman’s agreement between the First Minister of 1997 recognised, in paragraph 2.10, that there and the Secretary of State for Foreign and would be areas where public bodies with a UK or Commonwealth Affairs. What procedural advice GB remit operate in devolved areas. It will be for can you give me about how this matter can be the Scottish Parliament to decide whether to put in addressed and how this Parliament can be treated place separate Scottish bodies, but we should with more respect and courtesy than the contempt recognise the advantages of current arrangements it is receiving from the Executive? that allow sharing of knowledge and expertise and The Deputy Presiding Officer: The member greater efficiency. should be careful of using points of order as points Section 88 of the Scotland Act provides of argument, but I indicate to him that the whole mechanisms for cross-border public authorities to matter of parliamentary privilege will be be specified. Some 65 such bodies have been considered by the Standards Committee prior to identified. Section 88 provides for them. Scottish bringing forward recommendations on a code of ministers will have the right to be consulted on conduct for members. membership and on other functions relating to such bodies, as the white paper set out. Section 88 also gives Parliament the chance to scrutinise reports of the bodies. Section 89 provides opportunities for case-by- case examination of bodies and for transferring additional functions to the Scottish ministers, or otherwise adjusting the basic position provided by 205 3 JUNE 1999 206 section 88. That is what the present order does. It which are specifically exercisable in relation to the also offers an opportunity to move forward, with authority, such as powers to give directions Westminster, to put in place suitable specifically to that authority. arrangements for cross-border public authorities The Scottish ministers will not, therefore, that will give UK and Scottish ministers and the automatically acquire such functions in connection two Parliaments appropriate control. with the authority. However, ministers of the I would like to commend—perhaps Crown must, in such cases, consult