EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES COMMITTEE Thursday 10 January 2013 Session 4 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.scottish.parliament.uk or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 10 January 2013 CONTENTS Col. WHERE GYPSY TRAVELLERS LIVE .................................................................................................................. 841 EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES COMMITTEE 1st Meeting 2013, Session 4 CONVENER *Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) DEPUTY CONVENER *Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) COMMITTEE MEMBERS John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) *John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) *Siobhan McMahon (Central Scotland) (Lab) *Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Christopher Ahern (North Muirton Community Council) James Brownhill (Nigg Community Council) Sheila Chambers (Cockenzie and Port Seton Community Council) Kenneth Johnstone (Girvan and District Community Council) Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) (Committee Substitute) Elizabeth Rhodick (Lochgilphead Community Council) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Douglas Thornton LOCATION Committee Room 4 841 10 JANUARY 2013 842 Christopher Ahern (North Muirton Scottish Parliament Community Council): I am Chris Ahern. I am the chairman of North Muirton community council in Equal Opportunities Committee Perth. The Convener: Thank you. We have apologies Thursday 10 January 2013 from John Finnie MSP, who is unwell and is unable to attend the meeting. [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:31] Agenda item 1 is an evidence session with Where Gypsy Travellers Live representatives from community councils on where Gypsy Travellers live. I welcome The Convener (Mary Fee): Good morning, Christopher Ahern, James Brownhill, Sheila everyone, and happy new year to you all. Chambers, Kenneth Johnstone and Elizabeth Welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s Rhodick. first meeting in 2013. Everyone should set their What we hear today will help us to better electronic devices to flight mode or switch them off understand the relationship between the settled completely, please. community and Gypsy Travellers and will help to I will introduce everyone at the table. With inform our future evidence sessions and our members and witnesses are the clerking and inquiry report. Committee members will have a research team, official reporters and broadcasting number of questions for our witnesses. I will start services. Around the room, we are supported by with questions for each witness. What involvement the security office. I welcome the observers in the have you had with Gypsy Travellers in your area? public gallery. Has any of you visited any Gypsy Traveller sites? I am the committee’s convener. I ask committee Christopher Ahern: The Double Dykes members and witnesses to introduce themselves permanent site is about a mile away from where in turn. we are, and we have two areas that the people like to use as sites. About three months ago, I Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP): I am visited the Travellers on one of the unofficial sites. the MSP for Edinburgh Central and deputy That was by accident, as we were up there with convener of the committee. planners who were planning to build on the site on Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) which they were camped. (SNP): Good morning. I am the MSP for The Travellers were quite pleasant; indeed, all Aberdeenshire West. those whom we have visited are pleasant enough Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con): to talk to. They understand the problems, but they I am an MSP for North East Scotland and a simply leave a problem. We have never had any substitute member of the committee. animosity with them. Most of the complaints have been about the mess that they have left behind, Siobhan McMahon (Central Scotland) (Lab): I but we have not had an anger problem or other am an MSP for Central Scotland. problem with them. John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP): I James Brownhill: Nigg community council am the MSP for Glasgow Shettleston. covers the southern part of Aberdeen city, which is Elizabeth Rhodick (Lochgilphead a fairly rural area but is close to industrial estates. Community Council): I am Elizabeth Rhodick, The area seems to have been fairly attractive to but I like to be known as Betty. I am the vice- Gypsy Travellers over many years, primarily in convener of Lochgilphead community council. summer, but also in winter. Our experience in the community council is purely of unauthorised Kenneth Johnstone (Girvan and District campsites. There is no halting site for Gypsy Community Council): I am Kenneth Johnstone Travellers in Aberdeen city, but they have one site from Girvan. I prefer to be known as Ken. at Clinterty, outside the city, which is criticised as Sheila Chambers (Cockenzie and Port Seton being a bit far out and remote. Community Council): I am vice-chair of Our experience is purely of unauthorised Cockenzie and Port Seton community council and travelling sites. I have not gone to them after the I am representing all the community councils in Gypsy Travellers have left, but I have walked East Lothian. through them while the Gypsy Travellers are there, James Brownhill (Nigg Community Council): which is not a pleasant experience. Our I am vice-chairman of Nigg community council in experience of sites over many years has been not Aberdeen city. at all favourable. As the gentleman who is sitting alongside me said, there is a problem with what the Gypsy Travellers leave behind, which is most 843 10 JANUARY 2013 844 unsavoury. However, the problem is also to an to stay for very short periods of up to two weeks. extent harassment while they are there and noise Many of those sites are not particularly close to for people who live close by, and fly-tipping seems the settled community—for instance, Longniddry to be standard for almost every unauthorised bents is some distance from most of the local encampment. Unfortunately, human waste is often houses—but, when the Travellers are there, they left behind, too, in a fairly unsavoury manner. deter tourists. If the Travellers are in the car park, tourists are reluctant to go into it, partly because of In the past, we and the city of Aberdeen the mess and partly because of reports of the community council forum have tried to get the abusive attitudes of the Travellers. Gypsy Traveller community to attend meetings, but it has never taken up that offer with us as a From speaking to a number of people in East community council or with the citywide forum. Lothian, I know that many recognise and respect From speaking to other community councils in the the fact that Travellers have a different way of life city and to some in the shire, I have found that and a different culture, but there is a strong feeling unauthorised campsites are a widespread problem that that respect is not mutual. Therefore, the and that they give a particularly unfavourable Travellers do not have a very good reputation. In impression. When Aberdeen City Council talks particular, the mess that they leave behind is about an authorised campsite—it temporarily worrying. We are aware that dealing with that has designated a site as such in our community cost East Lothian Council a considerable sum of council area recently—that is therefore not money. Some of the mess is offensive. particularly well received by the settled A fairly new problem that has arisen is that, community. The Gypsy Travellers are not since the council put up barriers at the Longniddry particularly welcome, because they do not have a car park so that the Travellers could no longer get good reputation at all. in with their caravans, the Travellers have started Aberdeen City Council’s offer of the current coming to the land around Cockenzie power temporary site for Gypsy Travellers was executed station. Cockenzie power station will close on 31 as a verbal arrangement for a group of 12 units, March, and we fear that the Travellers will come but that figure has risen to 28. That does not go there more and more. The area is owned not by down particularly well locally with the residential East Lothian Council but by Scottish Power. community and the business community. The Ownership of the land will present another latter now meets every two weeks to address the problem if it is necessary to get eviction orders or problem, which concerns not just the fly-tipping deal with the mess. Furthermore, parts of that site that has been witnessed but security breaches in are quite close to local houses and there have the neighbouring industrial estate and loss of stock been reports of people looking out of their from some retail outlets. windows and seeing people defecating in the open, which is not very nice. It is difficult to assess how long the authorised campsite will continue, but its establishment I think that that is all for the moment. seems to have been based originally on one of the Kenneth Johnstone: I have a totally different Gypsy Traveller ladies being pregnant and perspective. To be honest, I had had no wanting to give birth at Aberdeen maternity interaction with Travellers until I knew that I would hospital. That has now happened, and we have be coming here today. We have a permanent site two meetings today with the council to see what in Girvan, and there has never been any trouble at the future holds for the campsite. all that I know of. It all seems to work very well, Generally speaking, the Gypsy Travellers, who and it is very well managed. tend to be transient in Aberdeen and are so Knowing that I was coming here today, I went throughout the year, do not have a good down to the site earlier this week to have a look.