House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee The implications for Scotland of both the Strategic Defence and Security Review and The Comprehensive Spending Review Oral and written evidence Oral evidence taken and ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 3 November 2010 and 7 June 2011 HC 580 i-ii Published on 7 February 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £8.50 The Scottish Affairs Committee The Scottish Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Scotland Office (including (i) relations with the Scottish Parliament and (ii) administration and expenditure of the offices of the Advocate General for Scotland (but excluding individual cases and advice given within government by the Advocate General)). Current membership Mr Ian Davidson (Labour/Co-op, Glasgow South West) (Chair) Fiona Bruce (Conservative, Congleton) Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green) Jim McGovern (Labour, Dundee West) Iain McKenzie MP (Lab, Inverclyde) Graeme Morrice MP (Lab, Livingston) David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South) Fiona O’Donnell (Labour, East Lothian) Simon Reevell (Conservative, Dewsbury) Mr Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute) Lindsay Roy (Labour, Glenrothes) Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Scottish National Party, Banff and Buchan) The following members were also members of the committee during the Parliament: Cathy Jamieson (Labour/Co-op, Kilmarnock and Loudoun) Fiona O’Donnell (Labour, East Lothian) Mark Menzies (Conservative, Fylde) Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No. 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/scotaffcom. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Dr Rebecca Davies (Clerk), Duma Langton (Inquiry Manager), James Bowman (Senior Committee Assistant), Gabrielle Hill (Committee Assistant), Karen Watling (Committee Assistant) and Ravi Abhayaratne (Committee Support Assistant) Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Scottish Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6123; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]. List of witnesses Wednesday 3 November 2010 Page Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland and Alisdair McIntosh, Director, Scotland Office Ev 1 Tuesday 7 June 2011 Rt Hon Liam Fox MP, Secretary of State for Defence Ev 18 List of written evidence 1 Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland Ev 26 2 Rt Hon Liam Fox MP, Secretary of State for Defence Ev 29 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [03-02-2012 13:13] Job: 017793 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/017793/017793_o001_db_HC 580-i Corrected.xml Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Scottish Affairs Committee on Wednesday 3 November 2010 Members present: Mr Ian Davidson (Chair) Fiona Bruce Fiona O’Donnell Jim McGovern Mr Alan Reid Mark Menzies Lindsay Roy David Mowat Dr Eilidh Whiteford ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland and Alisdair McIntosh, Director, Scotland Office, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Michael, we welcome you to the meeting continue to play a very big part in the United and Mr McIntosh, who I see has been suitably Kingdom’s defence. punished since his last visit here. I wonder if we could start off by discussing with you the Strategic Defence Q4 Chair: So you did actually write letters to the Review and your involvement in it. Could you tell us Prime Minister, the Minister of Defence and/or the what you think your main contribution to the Strategic Chancellor, and, if so, can we see those? Defence Review was? Michael Moore: Those are letters between Michael Moore: Thank you, Mr Davidson, for the Government Ministers about the formulation of opportunity to appear in front of the Committee again Government policy and, as I understand it, it has not on these two very important subjects. Specifically on been the practice of Administrations in the past to the Defence Review, I regarded it as very important share that. If you don’t mind, it would not be my from the outset to engage with all the different aspects intention to share those with you, but I hope you of defence in Scotland which contribute to the United would accept my assurance that I had a very high level Kingdom’s defence, whether that was directly through of engagement with my colleagues and that we took the different branches of the Armed Forces or through decisions which were well informed by the Scottish the industrial companies that are so important to our aspects of defence. I think the outcome, difficult, as I defence effort. As you know from the visit we paid to say, as some of it is, is that we have been able to Thales in your constituency and on other visits, I spent continue to show that Scotland plays a very big part a lot of the summer doing exactly that. So there is a in it, not least if I might point out—and I am sure you direct engagement with all the different parts of would be the first to recognise this—in terms of the defence as it contributes towards the UK’s defence, decision to continue with both aircraft carriers. and then engaging with my colleagues in Government Having visited both Rosyth and also the Scotstoun and discussing how Scotland continues to contribute to the Govan yards, I was particularly pleased about that overall UK defence effort. decision. Q2 Chair: Did you at any time have one-on-one meetings with the Prime Minister, the Minister of Q5 Chair: When you say if we don’t mind, you’ll Defence or the Chancellor on the subject of the not send us the letter, I take it that means you are not Defence Review? going to send us the letters anyway, whether we mind Michael Moore: I didn’t have one-on-one meetings or not. That is correct, isn’t it? with the Prime Minister or the Chancellor, but I did Michael Moore: It’s not my intention to do that. with the Defence Secretary, and of course I was in different meetings with the Prime Minister and the Q6 Chair: That’s right; okay. Were you aware of and Chancellor when these issues were being discussed. did you sign off on all decisions that were made in the Defence Review as a member of the Cabinet? Q3 Chair: Did you feel it necessary at any point to Michael Moore: The formal process was that the write a letter, for leaking purposes or otherwise, to National Security Council brought forward the any of them? document. That was brought to Cabinet and as Michael Moore: I can assure you that I was very Cabinet we signed it off, yes. diligent in writing, speaking, meeting and all other appropriate forms of engagement because, as I see it, Q7 Chair: I just want to be clear that you have had Scotland has always played a very, very important part the opportunity as Scottish Secretary to be involved in the United Kingdom’s defence. I think it is very in all of this. Particularly in relation to the carrier, at important that it continues to do so. Difficult as many the point when the Ministry of Defence asked BAE of the decisions have been as part of the Defence Systems to consider changing the order from two to Review, I am very confident that Scotland will either one or zero, were you involved at that stage? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [03-02-2012 13:13] Job: 017793 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/017793/017793_o001_db_HC 580-i Corrected.xml Ev 2 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence 3 November 2010 Rt Hon Michael Moore MP and Alisdair McIntosh Michael Moore: I am not going to—and again I will Lossiemouth closed that would represent a massive use the polite form of this—give a blow-by-blow 25% cut in Scotland’s defence personnel? It would be account of the different parts of this, if you don’t a 71% reduction in the RAF personnel. Can I ask you: mind, but I think it is pretty self-evident from the why is Scotland taking such a disproportionate share timing of my visit to Govan and to Scotstoun that this of the cuts that are coming? How are the job was a very live issue at the time. I made sure that I reductions going to be achieved? Is it going to be by understood and fully engaged not just with the redundancies? Is it going to be by relocations? Is it management team there but with the workforce too, going to be retirals? Is it going to be a freeze in and particularly with the trade union representatives. recruitment? How is it going to happen? I think that was part of a compelling case that I was Michael Moore: On the specifics of that, that is able to engage with my Cabinet colleagues about. something that the MOD is actively engaged on at the moment. Some of these decisions relating to the future Q8 Dr Whiteford: Welcome, Secretary of State. I of the bases have still to be taken and both the Deputy will get straight to the point.