Joan Halifax Interview w/ Sean Murphy Mar 2014 (1) Joan Halifax Interview with Sean Murphy SM: The theme of the upcoming conference is Emerging Wisdom, and for readers who won’t be able to be there – or who will be there but want more -- there’s an interest in how the ancient traditions provided spiritual guidance and companionship, and how this is changing in our multicultural, multi-faith and also partly secular contemporary world -- as well as what the new era of interfaith dialogue has to add to this. First, maybe you could speak to the traditional role of the spiritual guide or companion in Buddhism? JH: One of the important Buddhist teachings is taking refuge in the Three Jewels: Buddha, Dharma , and Sangha. First is taking refuge in the Buddha. In the historical context, this is taking refuge in the historical Buddha. From a contemporary perspective, one can look at it as taking refuge in that spiritually mature individual who becomes a friend to you on the path, and also to that same quality within yourself – a quality of spiritual maturity. If you’ve done that, it might become possible to have an authentic friendship with a teacher who has more experience in spiritual matters, in practice, in spiritual development. SM: Do you think that the approach to providing or encouraging both the role of the spiritual teacher and that quality in oneself is changing in the contemporary era? JH: We live in a very interesting time where there’s a lot of skepticism and cynicism, where the challenges to trust are great. I suppose I feel that it’s difficult even to trust ourselves. And certainly interpersonal trust is frequently not easy to realize with a teacher. I think the student-teacher relationship has become more reality-based. I talk about that relationship going through phases, and the first phase is the phase of idealization. That particular phase I think is more typical in Eastern culture. The second phase is demonization – one 1 Joan Halifax Interview w/ Sean Murphy Mar 2014 (2) withdraws the projection of the ideal from the teacher, and projects one’s negative complexes on them. That’s usually when the student-teacher relationship is abandoned, frequently by both parties. Then that projection has to be withdrawn as well, for normalization, the third phase, to happen, where there’s a relationship that’s based on differences in capacity, but also upon a kind of equality. We project our enlightenment upon to our teachers; we also project our negative qualities onto our teachers. What we need to do is to understand that process in order to enter into more a normalized relationship with our teacher. You also care about your teacher, the well-being of that person. Just as you would care for your grandmother or your parents. And your teacher cares about you. There’s a kind of intimacy and love there that is very important. SM: So that care goes in both directions. JH: Absolutely. SM: This sounds like the voice of many years of experience talking. So you’ve mentioned that traditionally, seekers on the path sought refuge in the Three Jewels, the first one being the Buddha, who represents partly the historical Buddha and partly the potential of awakening or spiritual maturity in ourselves. But then another jewel is the Sangha, the community of practitioners. How did spiritual companionship historically function in community building and right relationship, and how is that also changing? JH: First, the second jewel is also very important: the Dharma. That has to do with the teachings, the vision, the values that are shared by a community. I feel a lot of times we don’t recognize how important it is that a community share vision and values together. Then there’s the third jewel, the Sangha, the community. In the important teachings Bernie Glassman did (In his book “Instructions to the Cook”) called the ‘Five Course Meal’, he talks about Spirituality, Study, Livelihood, 2 Joan Halifax Interview w/ Sean Murphy Mar 2014 (3) Social Action, and Community. Community is a really important part of the experience of spiritual development. It is said that the most difficult and challenging of the jewels is the third, the sangha, because ultimately it’s an antidote to ego. I was thinking about the teachings of St Benedict in this regard, because the most valiant monk is not the solitary or even the beggar, but the one who chooses to live with others in community. Community is really important in the development of character, including the dissolution of one’s own ego. Living in a healthy community offers little escape from who we are. Ultimately community is about love – it’s about doing very simple things for each other, which could include cooking together or cleaning up or helping with the needs of others. Sangha is also about sharing our resources with each other, including our minds, our insights and our time. It’s how we in the community allow each other to develop. Both in Buddhism and the Benedictine model, our spirituality in the community setting is not really about the local self, but about the extended self. And the extended self is about benefiting others. Just living with other people doesn’t necessarily make community. We have to share the same reservoir of values. We also have to have a common commitment. For example in Buddhism they speak about four kinds of karma, of which the most serious is weighty karma. Weighty karma includes causing division in the community. Other kinds of weighty karma would include killing an enlightened being or killing a parent. So clearly causing division in the sangha is considered to be extremely unwholesome. When I was practicing with Thich Nhat Hanh he would talk about harmony of community, which included sharing a common faith, caring for the essentials of daily life, observing the precepts together. A fourth point was engaging in speech that contributes to harmony within the community and avoiding speech that could cause the community to break. The fifth was sharing of insights. And the sixth is really important, this is respecting others’ viewpoints and not forcing others to follow your 3 Joan Halifax Interview w/ Sean Murphy Mar 2014 (4) perspective. These are really important perspectives that Thich Nhat Hanh has articulated in the community process. SM: Were there any particular experiences that you had in your early spiritual development and in receiving spiritual guidance that illustrate some of these points? JH: Well, I think one of the important things that I’m engaged in is the experience of being in a community where you’re studying the Dharma, you’re discussing the Dharma and also the experience of council process. You’re sitting in a circle where there’s equality and difference. I feel that the council process for me -- and I’ve been engaged with it since the 1960’s -- is about basic respect, and also the development of kind of inquiry in relation to views of others. Community to me is a very challenging process. We’re kind of selfish in western culture -- everybody wants to have their own house, their own car, but we’re not so good about sharing resources. We feel like we need a lot of stuff and that stuff is our stuff. SM: Is there a particular moment or turning point where either you saw something that changed you or where you helped somebody else see something about that community experience that changed them? JH: Sean, you’re asking somebody who has been living in community since 1970’s. SM: I know. That’s a lot. JH: Most people live in their own houses. So … SM: It’s an everyday experience for you. JH: I feel like I see it every day, so it would all sound a little self- serving. 4 Joan Halifax Interview w/ Sean Murphy Mar 2014 (5) SM: How about in terms of advice to give others in offering spiritual guidance? JH: If we’re looking at a paradigm that is useful, I feel that the (traditional model of the) Paramitas are really helpful. What is it to live generously? What is it to live virtuously? What is it to be patient and inclusive, to be wholehearted, to be mindful? And what is it to be wise? That is both the path of the bodhisattva and it’s also the fruit of that path. These are classical teachings in Buddhism about how a bodhisattva acts, and they’re wonderful guidelines for community. SM: So, when you’re training people to live in community, how is it different from the traditional Buddhist training? How has that had to change to accommodate first the 1960’s and ‘70’s and then up through today? I’m sure your ways of training people both for insight and wisdom and for living in community have evolved and I’m sure that they’re rather different from the way it was in the original Buddhist times. JH: I think that because of feminism, psychology and democracy, Buddhism here is quite different than it was for example a hundred years ago or in Asia. People (in the west) tend to be much more psychological. So, a really important element in community, for example, is taking personal responsibility for one’s harmful actions -- but that was also true at the time of the Buddha. And then practicing forgiveness is another really important element -- what is it to be unconditionally forgiving? In Lojong training, they say drive all blames into oneself.