House of Commons CANADA Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates OGGO Ï NUMBER 021 Ï 3rd SESSION Ï 40th PARLIAMENT EVIDENCE Wednesday, June 2, 2010 Chair Ms. Yasmin Ratansi 1 Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates Wednesday, June 2, 2010 Ï (1530) [Translation] [English] Mr. Jacques Gourde: Madam Chair, the documents in question The Chair (Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)): must be translated before they can be distributed to members. Order. Mr. Nadeau, my Bloc Québécois colleague, made some excellent points. Specifically, he said this: Committee members, it is 3:30, and I would like to— [...] the two official languages are French and English. That being the case, then the clerk's office has a responsibility to ensure that the documents are translated for An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor] the benefit of committee members. The Chair: Yes, I will in a minute. I tabled a motion calling for all documents to be translated and the committee unanimously endorsed it. I'm sure all members remember I would like to ensure— my motion. I know that Mr. Martin from the NDP agreed that all [Translation] members should have equal access to documents. That's why I'm very concerned, Madam Chair, and why I'd like to know if the Mr. Jacques Gourde (Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, documents that Mr. Gillani recently turned over to the committee CPC): Madam Chair, I would like to raise a question of privilege. were sent to members of the media before they were translated and [English] before the committee members for whom they were originally The Chair: Yes, you do have a question of privilege, and you will intended had access to them. We know the documents were get time. circulated to the press because mention was made of them yesterday in a Canadian Press release. Canadian Press reported that the [Translation] documents had recently been turned over to the Standing Committee Mr. Jacques Gourde: Madam Chair, it is my opinion that the on Government Operations and Estimates. You must certainly know, rights and privileges of the members of this committee have been Madam Chair, that you were the only committee member to have infringed upon. I would therefore like to lodge a formal complaint. had access to the documents. You said so yourself and, if you will excuse my pronunciation, you said, and I quote, “there are 725 pages At our last committee meeting on Monday, May 31, 2010, you of information that I have taken a look at”. Obviously then, you were informed us that Mr. Nazim Gillani had sent a bundle of documents the one who circulated these documents to the media before they to the committee. Madam Chair, you indicated at the time that there were translated and before members had an opportunity to see them. were 725 pages of documents and that these were in one official Therefore, Madam Chair, I would like to move the following motion, language only. The committee discussed at length whether or not to and it will be distributed in both English and French: distribute the documents until they were translated. A number of That the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates report to valid arguments were raised by committee members. the House at the earliest opportunity that the rights and privileges of members on the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates are believed to have I'm going to wait until I have your attention, Madam Chair. Are been infringed upon; the Committee therefore requests that the Speaker of the House of Commons investigate this matter in a timely fashion and rule on whether the rights you listening to me? and privileges of members have been infringed upon; and that in the interim the [English] member from Don Valley East should recuse herself temporarily and immediately of all duties as the Chair of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and The Chair: I'm listening to you and I'm also asking for Estimates. verification of the blues— Ï (1535) [Translation] [English] Mr. Jacques Gourde: I'll finish what I have to say and then you The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Gourde. can inquire about that. You have made an accusation. I had no access to the documents [English] that were in the clerk's possession. He advised me that it was The Chair: Yes, I'm listening to you. Women can do multi- irrelevant—that there were a lot of documents that were irrelevant— tasking quite well, so I'm listening to you. and that it was in English. So we brought it to the committee's attention. And whoever has released it to the media...it could be Mr. Some hon. members: Oh, oh! Gillani; I have no idea who has released it to the media. 2 OGGO-21 June 2, 2010 The clerk informs me that your motion is out of order, because Madam Chair, it is not up to the witnesses to decide when they you cannot instruct the Speaker to do anything. will appear before the committee, much less to appear in place of other witnesses who have been called to testify. Through their With that, I'd like to ensure.... actions, the Conservatives, and in particular the three ministers that Yes, Monsieur Guimond. have come here today, are displaying arrogance and contempt for the committee, which was democratically constituted pursuant to the [Translation] Standing Orders of the House of Commons. They are showing Mr. Michel Guimond (Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute- contempt for the democratic process. Once again, the Conservatives Côte-Nord, BQ): I will wait until you have finished responding, are behaving as if they are above the rules. They are demonstrating Madam Chair. My point of order concerns an entirely different their utter lack of respect for our democratic institutions like the matter. House of Commons and its committees. They are showing their true [English] colours by exhibiting their utter contempt for Parliament. Their actions prove, Madam Chair, that they are incapable of living with The Chair: I have actually responded to it, because, one, the democracy, as this committee is a by-product of democratic will. The gentleman in question is being ungentlemanly and making best proof we have of this is the composition of this committee. accusations that he cannot back, and two, the clerk advises me that Government members are in the minority on this committee, just as his motion is out of order. So we proceed. the Conservatives form a minority Parliament, further to the exercise Mr. Guimond. of the democratic will of the people of Quebec and of Canada. By coming here today, these ministers are displaying their arrogance. [Translation] Mr. Michel Guimond: I have a point of order. Last May 25, Mr. Hill, the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, attempted to bring in a new set of rules governing the Madam Chair— appearance of witnesses. He announced that political staffers would [English] no longer be permitted to testify before committees. An hon. member: Madam Chair— Ï (1540) The Chair: He's on a point of order. Mr. Hill decided unilaterally to rewrite the Standing Orders. Since he wasn't happy with the old ones, he decided to rewrite them to suit An hon member: Okay, I'll wait until later. himself. I'm sorry, but we won't be a party to this charade. It has The Chair: You cannot interrupt his point of order. Let him gone on long enough. You must respect democracy, regardless of finish. what the government leader might think. He can try and strong-arm us all he wants, but there are rules in place here. [Translation] Mr. Michel Guimond: Madam Chair, I see that our witnesses are Ministerial staffers have been called to testify and they must do so, present, namely Mr. Doug Maley, Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta in accordance with the Standing Orders. They will be subpoenaed. If Region, and Mr. André C. Morin, Valuation and Payments in Lieu of they chose to ignore the subpoena, we will present a motion to the Taxes Programs. However, I would like to know why the Minister of House of Commons, one that will subsequently be debated. These Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, the Minister of State individuals will be found in contempt of Parliament. When you (Science and Technology) (Federal Economic Development Agency receive an invitation, sirs, then you can come here and testify. for Southern Ontario) and the Minister of Natural Resources are here In fact, the committee invited Mr. Paradis, the Minister of Natural today, given that they were not invited to testify. Resources to come and testify on May 4 last, but he declined. And Madam Chair, committees are an extension and a creation of the now, he shows up here today, even though he was not invited. When House of Commons. The rules that govern the proceedings of the the committee needs to draw on his expertise for a study, then it will House of Commons also apply to committee operations. However, invite him back. our Standing Orders are more explicit when it comes to witnesses in committee because, as you know, witnesses are not permitted on the Today, Madam Chair, I am asking you to let these uninvited floor of the House of Commons. In committee, however, witnesses ministers know that they are not welcome here and that we will press are generally present for reports and studies. The generally accepted ahead with our plans to hear from political staffers who were principle is that committees are master of their own proceedings.