Ep 34: Freedom and fairness in marriage law https://www.secularism.org.uk/podcast/2020/09/ep34 0:00:00.000,0:00:02.000 other religious groups. 0:00:38.640,0:00:42.079 0:00:04.000,0:00:08.080 The system of Registry Offices, which [Emma Park] Hello and welcome to episode would allow for civil non-religious 34 of the National Secular Society podcast 0:00:42.079,0:00:46.719 marriages, was introduced in 1837. 0:00:08.080,0:00:11.920 Today marriage law in England and Wales hosted by Emma Park. Marriage is a rite of passage, social 0:00:46.719,0:00:50.559 is a maze of rules and exemptions, 0:00:11.920,0:00:15.040 the application of which depends on the spiritual and legal, that for millennia has been a fundamental 0:00:50.559,0:00:54.480 religious affiliations, or lack thereof, 0:00:15.040,0:00:19.840 of the participants. part of societies around the world. In England, ever since Henry VIII broke 0:00:54.480,0:00:57.980 Same-sex marriage was not even introduced 0:00:19.840,0:00:22.400 in England and Wales until 2014 with the Catholic church in the 16th century, 0:00:57.980,0:01:00.800 0:00:22.400,0:00:26.040 under the coalition government, and it is over his desire to get divorced, and invented the Church of England to help him, 0:01:00.800,0:01:05.360 still almost exclusively only permitted 0:00:26.040,0:00:28.240 in civil non-religious venues. the legal process of getting married has 0:01:05.360,0:01:08.960 0:00:28.240,0:00:32.000 And, as a recent case in the high court been closely intertwined with the demonstrated, marriage ceremonies religious ceremony run by the C of E. 0:01:08.960,0:01:12.640 0:00:32.000,0:00:35.600 conducted by humanist celebrants are not A diverse range of exemptions has legally binding at all. gradually been carved out for Catholics, 0:01:12.640,0:01:16.240 0:00:35.600,0:00:38.640 So, what is the best solution to this Jews, Quakers, Muslims and unsatisfactory, old-fashioned and 0:01:16.240,0:01:20.000 0:02:08.479,0:02:12.720 typically English farrago of compromises? and Wales is that it's all based on the building To answer this question I 0:02:12.720,0:02:16.239 0:01:20.000,0:01:23.439 where the wedding takes place. am now joined by two members of the team So if you want your at the National Secular Society: 0:02:16.239,0:02:20.480 0:01:23.439,0:01:29.439 wedding to be legal, it has to take place Stephen Evans, the CEO, and in a particular building, Megan Manson, Head of Policy and Research. 0:02:20.480,0:02:24.400 0:01:32.159,0:01:36.799 unless it's a Jewish or a Quaker wedding, So, firstly, what are the current laws on which can take place anywhere. marriage in England and Wales, Megan? 0:02:24.400,0:02:28.879 0:01:36.800,0:01:40.960 [EP] Stephen, what are the NSS's main [Megan Manson] Well, they're pretty objections complex. The law has been developed in a piecemeal 0:02:28.879,0:02:32.160 way, to these current laws. Obviously they're extremely complicated, but 0:01:40.960,0:01:45.020 which now means that we've ended up 0:02:32.160,0:02:36.480 essentially with five different marriage laws, are there any more specific objections? [Stephen Evans] Well, as Megan has 0:01:45.020,0:01:48.000 depending on whether the wedding is a 0:02:36.480,0:02:38.879 just explained, 0:01:48.000,0:01:51.520 because of the way the laws developed Church of England wedding, a Jewish wedding, a Quaker wedding, 0:02:38.879,0:02:43.280 over time, we have an 0:01:51.560,0:01:55.320 overly complex maze of different rules any other type of religious wedding, or a civil marriage. 0:02:43.280,0:02:46.480 for different types of ceremonies. 0:01:55.320,0:01:59.040 Both the Church and the State have So different laws apply depending on, 0:02:46.480,0:02:50.239 0:01:59.040,0:02:03.439 actually played key roles at different essentially, the religious ethos, or be it times in the history and the evolution no religious ethos at all, 0:02:50.239,0:02:53.599 0:02:03.439,0:02:08.479 of the institution of marriage. And so of the wedding itself. And the other strange quirk about the law in England 0:02:53.599,0:02:57.120 all the time you've got these parallel be held in a registered place of worship, strands going on, of the secular and the civil marriages must take place in 0:02:57.120,0:02:59.700 0:03:39.040,0:03:42.400 religious side of marriage, and that approved premises only. clearly hasn't gone away. So couples can't hold their weddings at 0:02:59.700,0:03:01.680 0:03:42.400,0:03:46.080 So at the moment home or outdoors. there are two routes to marriage, As Megan said, exceptions exist for 0:03:01.680,0:03:04.080 0:03:46.080,0:03:49.680 religious and civil. Jewish and Quaker marriages, So religion and state are very which can take place anywhere, but 0:03:04.080,0:03:07.200 0:03:49.680,0:03:53.040 much entwined in our marriage laws. humanists don't have their ceremonies And I think that's sets legally recognized 0:03:07.200,0:03:12.560 0:03:53.040,0:03:56.319 quite an unnecessary complex and and religious content is banned from restrictive system, that's also unfair. civil ceremonies, which means that 0:03:12.560,0:03:17.599 0:03:56.320,0:04:01.620 The law, as things stand, inter-religious ceremonies aren't really leads to unequal treatment of catered for, and couples just don't have the freedom 0:03:17.600,0:03:20.500 people, depending on their religious 0:04:01.620,0:04:05.260 outlook or beliefs. they may want. So really the whole thing's a bit of a mess. 0:03:20.500,0:03:24.959 And the recent High Court case 0:04:05.260,0:04:07.519 brought by six humanist couples, actually [EP] Sure, and it seems very unfair to people who don't 0:03:24.959,0:03:28.400 recognized, the Court recognized the 0:04:07.519,0:04:12.159 discriminatory nature have a religious affiliation in particular. [SE] Yeah. And on top of that, 0:03:28.400,0:03:32.239 of the law in terms of humanist weddings 0:04:12.159,0:04:16.400 not being permitted. the complexity of the legal status of religious weddings has also contributed 0:03:32.239,0:03:35.920 So, as Megan touched upon, under the 0:04:16.400,0:04:20.320 current laws religious marriages have to to a rise in couples who have religious marriages which they 0:03:35.920,0:03:39.040 0:04:20.320,0:04:23.520 0:05:04.479,0:05:06.880 may believe to be legally binding, it stands at the moment, like an Anglican wedding would be, doesn't allow for it. 0:04:23.520,0:04:27.840 0:05:06.880,0:05:10.000 but in fact aren't legally binding. Much of our existing wedding law And this is a particular problem amongst dates back to 1836, 0:04:27.840,0:04:31.440 0:05:10.000,0:05:13.360 some Muslim communities, and, I think it's fair to say, that what where many marriages have absolutely no may have worked in the 18th 0:04:31.440,0:04:34.000 0:05:13.360,0:05:17.120 legal basis, which can leave women and 19th centuries doesn't work now. vulnerable. So reforms really are 0:04:34.000,0:04:37.759 0:05:17.120,0:05:21.520 And I'm sure we'll draw down into that quite urgently needed. later. So basically there is a need to [EP] Okay. So that's England and Wales specifically. 0:04:37.759,0:04:42.160 secularize and simplify 0:05:21.520,0:05:23.680 the archaic laws that we have, which How does that compare with the law in 0:04:42.160,0:04:46.080 0:05:23.680,0:05:28.680 really aren't fit for purpose. Scotland at the moment? And, as the Law Commission has rightly [MM] So the the law in Scotland is a bit better.