IICSA Inquiry - CSARS 24 November 2020 1 Tuesday, 24 November 2020 1 There are three volumes of bundles. Don't worry, 2 (10.30 am) 2 I don't think we are going to be getting every single 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone and welcome to Day 7 of 3 one of those pages or, in fact, very many of them, up, 4 this public hearing. Ms Scolding? 4 but obviously, as well as referring you to the paper 5 MS SCOLDING: Good morning, chair. Just to indicate for 5 bundle, my colleague, Mr Hyde, can get documents up on 6 everybody who wasn't clear, we have had to rejig the 6 screen, and we shall be getting them up. If you can't 7 witness timetable, so we thank Mr Meyrick and 7 see them, please let me know and we can get them 8 Mr Llewellyn, who have moved from the morning to the 8 enlarged or changed around. 9 afternoon, to accommodate Ms Spielman, who has an urgent 9 Thirdly, if there are any technical difficulties, we 10 meeting with Cabinet at lunchtime about coronavirus. So 10 shall try and sort them out. We are hoping that won't 11 we have slightly had to rejig the timetable, but thank 11 be the case. 12 you very much for accommodating that. 12 Lastly, as there are three of you, I shall try and 13 Ms Smith, may we call Ms Spielman, Ms Humphreys and 13 preface or at least at some point in the question put 14 Mr Kennedy, all of Ofsted, please. 14 someone's name in there, but that doesn't preclude 15 MS HELEN HUMPHREYS (sworn) 15 anybody else. If you want to contribute, as we 16 MS AMANDA SPIELMAN (sworn) 16 discussed briefly yesterday, please could you raise your 17 MR JOHN KENNEDY (affirmed) 17 hand, and I can bring you in to add to the discussion. 18 Examination by MS SCOLDING 18 I am going to run through, firstly, some general 19 MS SCOLDING: Good morning to all three of you. A few 19 issues, because of Ms Spielman needing to get away at 20 introductory matters before I ask you to go to your 20 lunchtime, and then I'm going to deal with specific 21 witness evidence, please. 21 issues to do with Clifton College, Headlands and 22 Firstly, as you know, this isn't a test of memory, 22 Hillside. 23 so if you have made any notes, please feel free to refer 23 Ms Spielman, I'm turning to you first. We have two 24 to them. 24 witness statements from you, which we add to the other 25 Secondly, you should have bundles in front of you. 25 witness statements we received in phase 1. The first Page 1 Page 2 1 one of those is dated 6 July 2020, and it is behind 1 MS SCOLDING: Is it true, to the best of your knowledge and 2 tab 6 of the first volume of the bundle. Can I ask you 2 belief? 3 to confirm that you signed that witness statement? 3 MS HUMPHREYS: It is. 4 MS SPIELMAN: I did. 4 MS SCOLDING: We also have another witness statement from 5 MS SCOLDING: Is it true, to the best of your knowledge and 5 you behind tab 9. That's dated 29 September 2020. 6 belief? 6 Again, did you sign that witness statement? 7 MS SPIELMAN: It is. 7 MS HUMPHREYS: Yes, I did. 8 MS SCOLDING: There is also another witness statement, dated 8 MS SCOLDING: Is it true, to the best of your knowledge and 9 14 October. Chair and panel, you may well have that 9 belief? 10 loose, rather than in a tab. Can I ask you to confirm, 10 MS HUMPHREYS: It is. 11 Ms Spielman, that you signed that witness statement? 11 MS SCOLDING: Ms Humphreys, we heard from you in phase 1, 12 MS SPIELMAN: I did. 12 but just for those people who weren't watching during 13 MS SCOLDING: And it is true, to the best of your knowledge 13 that phase, what is your role within Ofsted at present? 14 and belief? 14 MS HUMPHREYS: I am one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of 15 MS SPIELMAN: It is. 15 Social Care and I am the specialist advisor for 16 MS SCOLDING: Can I just ask you to confirm, we have heard 16 residential care. 17 evidence from you in a number of investigations, but 17 MS SCOLDING: Thank you very much. Mr Kennedy, can we turn 18 that you are Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools? 18 to you? We have one witness statement from you, which 19 MS SPIELMAN: Of Education, Children's Services and Skills. 19 is sandwiched between those of Ms Humphreys, behind 20 MS SCOLDING: I do apologise. Second, Ms Humphreys, can 20 tab 8 of the bundle. Again, that's dated 2 July 2020. 21 I ask you to turn to tab 7 of the witness bundle, which, 21 Turning to the last page of that document, can you 22 again, is the first volume. That is a witness statement 22 confirm that you signed that? 23 from you dated 2 July 2020. Again, did you sign that 23 MR KENNEDY: Yes, I did. 24 witness statement? 24 MS SCOLDING: Is it true, to the best of your knowledge and 25 MS HUMPHREYS: I did. 25 belief? Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London, EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry - CSARS 24 November 2020 1 MR KENNEDY: There's five minor errors. Do you want me to 1 MS SCOLDING: Ms Spielman, turning to you first, we last 2 go through those? 2 heard evidence from you in October 2019 in this 3 MS SCOLDING: Well, yes, please. 3 investigation. Have there been any significant changes 4 MR KENNEDY: On paragraph 48, it refers to "the 2009 changes 4 to the inspection framework in respect of child 5 in paragraph 42", that should be "paragraph 28". 5 protection or safeguarding since that point in time? 6 MS SCOLDING: Right. 6 MS SPIELMAN: Not to the main frameworks, no. There are two 7 MR KENNEDY: There's a minor error on paragraph 52. The 7 changes I can draw to your attention, one around the 8 date of our response was 9 February, not 7 February. 8 guidance on talking to pupils that we published 9 MS SCOLDING: Thank you. 9 in September 2020. This is usually uncontentious in 10 MR KENNEDY: And in paragraph 65, the reference should be 10 most inspections, but there were a few quarters where 11 "Inspecting schools: Handbook for inspecting secondary 11 schools were uncomfortable, so we provided some 12 schools". 12 clarification. 13 Paragraph 108 should be "ten" rather than "nine" 13 And in initial teacher education, we published a new 14 nonteaching staff. 14 inspection framework for initial teacher education 15 And paragraph 120, it should be referring to 15 in June 2020, which will be used in inspections from 16 "paragraph 74", not "75". 16 next year. This does look at how teachers are trained 17 MS SCOLDING: Thank you very much, Mr Kennedy. 17 in relation to safeguarding as well as in relation to 18 Can you tell us who you are and your role within 18 curriculum, pedagogy and other aspects of teaching. 19 Ofsted, please? 19 MS SCOLDING: As you have talked about those two aspects, 20 MR KENNEDY: Yes. I'm an assistant regional director for 20 now might be an appropriate moment to talk about them. 21 the London region. I was appointed to that role in 21 Firstly, talking to pupils. One of the experiences that 22 2018. I'm also one of Her Majesty's Senior Inspectors 22 we have seen from the schools, both in phase 1 and 23 and I lead on the training of safeguarding for new 23 phase 2, is that, certainly in inspections in the past, 24 inspectors and new HMI and I'm a member of Ofsted 24 there may well not have been a great deal of focus upon 25 safeguarding group. 25 discussing matters with pupils. When you say you've had Page 5 Page 6 1 to clarify things, how central to inspection is talking 1 perhaps you can help us with that? 2 to pupils and how far do you seek their views and seek 2 MS HUMPHREYS: Yes. Children in social care settings are 3 to listen to their views, both during the inspection but 3 required to have the number to contact Ofsted should 4 also between inspections? 4 they have any concerns in between inspections, and when 5 MS SPIELMAN: It's a very important part of every 5 they ring the Ofsted number, they are put straight 6 inspection, certainly while I have been chief inspector. 6 through to a specially-trained handler who can take 7 And sort of meeting groups of pupils and meeting those 7 those calls, and then, if needed, those calls are then 8 in a context where they can talk freely about the school 8 put on to an inspector. We don't have many children who 9 without staff present to inhibit their ability to 9 ring through, as you can imagine, but it does happen. 10 express concerns is fundamental.