S. HRG. 110–941 COERCIVE INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES: DO THEY WORK, ARE THEY RELIABLE, AND WHAT DID THE FBI KNOW ABOUT THEM? HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION JUNE 10, 2008 Serial No. J–110–98 Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary ( U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 53–740 PDF WASHINGTON : 2009 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512–1800; DC area (202) 512–1800 Fax: (202) 512–2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402–0001 VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:58 Dec 10, 2009 Jkt 053740 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 5011 Sfmt 5011 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\53740.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah HERB KOHL, Wisconsin CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California JON KYL, Arizona RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois JOHN CORNYN, Texas BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island TOM COBURN, Oklahoma BRUCE A. COHEN, Chief Counsel and Staff Director STEPHANIE A. MIDDLETON, Republican Staff Director NICHOLAS A. ROSSI, Republican Chief Counsel (II) VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:58 Dec 10, 2009 Jkt 053740 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\53740.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC C O N T E N T S STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS Page Feingold, Hon. Russell D., a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin, pre- pared statement ................................................................................................... 123 Feinstein, Hon. Dianne, a U.S. Senator from the State of California ................. 1 prepared statement .......................................................................................... 125 Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont, prepared statement .............................................................................................................. 159 Specter, Hon. Arlen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania ................. 4 WITNESSES Caproni, Valerie E., General Counsel, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash- ington, D.C. ........................................................................................................... 9 Cloonan, John E., retired Special Agent, West Caldwell, New Jersey ................ 32 Fine, Glenn A., Inspector General, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C ... 7 Heymann, Philip B., James Barr Ames Professor of Law, Harvard Law School, Cambridge, Massachusetts ..................................................................... 40 Sands, Philippe, QC, Professor of Law and Director of the Centre of Inter- national Courts and Tribunals, University College London ............................. 37 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Responses of Valerie Caproni to questions submitted by Senators Kennedy, Feingold and Schumer ......................................................................................... 51 Responses of John (Jack) Cloonan to questions submitted by Senator Ken- nedy ....................................................................................................................... 65 Responses of Glenn A. Fine to questions submitted by Senators Schumer, Feingold and Kennedy ......................................................................................... 67 Responses of Philip B. Heymann to questions submitted by Senator Kennedy . 73 Responses of Philippe Sands to questions submitted by Senator Kennedy ........ 108 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Caproni, Valerie E., General Counsel, federal Bureau of Investigation, Wash- ington, D.C., statement ........................................................................................ 112 Cloonan, John E., retired Special Agent, West Caldwell, New Jersey, state- ment ...................................................................................................................... 116 Fine, Gleen A., Inspector General, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., statement .............................................................................................................. 130 Heymann, Philip B., James Barr Ames Professor of Law, Harvard Law School, Cambridge, Massachusetts, statement .................................................. 144 Legal Analysis of Interrogation Techniquies ......................................................... 161 Sands, Philippe, AC, Professor of Law and Director of the Centre of Inter- national Courts and Tribunals, University College London, statement and attachment ............................................................................................................ 164 Whitehouse, Sheldon, a U.S. Senator from the State of Rhode Island, Intel- ligence hearing transcript ................................................................................... 206 (III) VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:58 Dec 10, 2009 Jkt 053740 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\53740.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:58 Dec 10, 2009 Jkt 053740 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\53740.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC COERCIVE INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES: DO THEY WORK, ARE THEY RELIABLE, AND WHAT DID THE FBI KNOW ABOUT THEM? TUESDAY, JUNE 10, 2008 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:36 a.m., in room SD–226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Dianne Feinstein, presiding. Present: Senators Feinstein, Feingold, Schumer, Durbin, Cardin, Whitehouse, and Specter. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA Senator FEINSTEIN. I would like to quickly announce that there are five votes at 11 o’clock. Our witnesses this morning and I think the members are aware of that. My plan would be to recess the Committee at 11, and if we are not concluded, we will be able to recess and reconvene here at 2 o’clock in the afternoon. I might say this: For me, this is a very important hearing. I serve on the Intelligence Committee, so I am well aware of en- hanced interrogation techniques. And the question before us is a very difficult and important subject: coercive interrogations and torture. Historically, the United States has been steadfast in its resolve that torture is unnecessary, unreliable, and un-American. Without torture, we succeeded in conflicts that threatened the very exist- ence of our country, including a Civil War, a World War, and nu- merous other conflicts and enemies. Despite President Bush’s promise that the United States would fight the war on terror consistent with American values and ‘‘in the finest traditions of valor,’’ the administration decided, as the Vice President said in 2001, to ‘‘go to the dark side’’—to use coercive in- terrogation. This decision by the Bush administration has had profound ef- fects. Cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of prisoners under American control I believe violates our Nation’s laws and values. It damages our reputation in the world, and it serves as a recruit- ment tool for our enemies. Perhaps more importantly, it has also limited our ability to obtain reliable and usable intelligence to help (1) VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:58 Dec 10, 2009 Jkt 053740 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\GPO\HEARINGS\53740.TXT SJUD1 PsN: CMORC 2 combat the war on terror, prevent additional threats, and bring to justice those who have sought to harm our country. I have listened to the experts, such as FBI Director Mueller, DIA Director General Maples, and General David Petraeus. All insist that even with hardened terrorists, you get more and better intel- ligence without resorting to coercive interrogations and torture. The bottom line is that there are many interrogation techniques that work, even against al Qaeda, without resorting to torture. One of today’s witnesses, former FBI Special Agent Jack Cloonan, has personally interrogated members of al Qaeda within the confines of the Geneva Conventions and obtained valuable, reliable, and usa- ble intelligence. Mr. Cloonan was involved in the interrogation of Ibn al-Sheik Al- Libi, the first high-profile al Qaeda member captured after Sep- tember 11th, and Ali Abdul Saud Mohammed, one of Osama bin Laden’s trainers. In both cases, the FBI used non-coercive interro- gations to obtain valuable information about al Qaeda. I look for- ward to Mr. Cloonan’s testimony about how the non-coercive inter- rogation techniques used by the FBI work to provide reliable and usable intelligence. The FBI has long recognized the unreliability of information ob- tained from coercion and torture. It has based its belief on years of experience and behavioral science. This hearing will examine how non-coercive interrogation techniques can be used effectively and why coercive interrogations and torture do not yield reliable and useful intelligence for the most part. The hearing will also review the recently released Department of Justice Inspector General’s report detailing the FBI’s knowledge and involvement in the coercive interrogation techniques and tor- ture that occurred in Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Iraq after the September 11, 2001, attack. Both Senator Specter, our Ranking Member today, and I have heard numerous times the Inspector General report on the FBI, and let me just say