CANADA House of Commons Debates VOLUME 137 Ï NUMBER 118 Ï 1st SESSION Ï 37th PARLIAMENT OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD) Monday, November 26, 2001 Speaker: The Honourable Peter Milliken CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.) All parliamentary publications are available on the ``Parliamentary Internet Parlementaire´´ at the following address: http://www.parl.gc.ca 7469 HOUSE OF COMMONS Monday, November 26, 2001 The House met at 11 a.m. computers and all sorts of devices, including pocket machines that communicate via the Internet. Prayers I find this intriguing. I can be anywhere in the world just about with a little hand held machine, type in a message to my staff or even my family and if they are properly wired they can receive that PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS message where ever they are. Sometimes of course, they are in an office where there is a computer. My son has text messaging on his Ï (1100) machine and he is just an ordinary guy. It no longer a big business [English] thing. Any time of the day or night I can send him a text message that appears on the screen of his digital phone. It has been a COMPUTER HACKERS remarkable transition. The House resumed from May 31 consideration of the motion. What we are dealing with today is those who would subvert the Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it system. We have had a number of high profile examples. I guess is my pleasure to rise in support of the motion that has been put mafiaboy is one that most of us remember. Through his own forward by the member for SaskatoonHumboldt. It might be malicious work, he disrupted the economy of the United States on e- appropriate for me to read the motion so that we know what we are mail, eBay and some of the other things. Some estimated that the talking about. total cost of that malicious behaviour was in excess of $1 billion. The motion states: I am sure all members of the House would agree that is not a petty That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately amend the cash, small change crime. That is not exactly like pick-pocketing. Criminal Code to create a separate category of offences and punishments for That is a very serious crime. computer hackers and persons who wilfully or maliciously export computer viruses, both of whose activities disrupt the normal conduct of electronic business in Canada. I am not able to compare it to anything because it is not possible in I have had the privilege of being involved with computers. I was most instances to cause that much of a disruption unless we look at teaching at the technical institute when we went from slide rules to the terrorist acts of September 11. Those were huge disruptions to computers, so I had some experience in that. Being a curious type of the economy. guy, I found great interest in these new electronic machines. Much to However computer hacking can have the same effect and can the chagrin of my wife and family, I sometimes forgot that it was actually, if targeted, bring down businesses. This private member's suppertime and I forgot to go home because I was interested in motion seeks to recognize that it is a very serious crime. learning how these newfangled machines worked. Back in those days we did not have laptop computers or desktop Those who have been watching this debate on Motion No. 80, will computers. We only had the big mainframes. I know that I cannot remember that the member for North Vancouver said that the present use props in the House, so I will not show the cards, but I still use the penalty had to do with mischief and it was covered under mischief. cards that we had at that time. When they were being thrown away I He said that it was mischievous to call it mischief, which really was kept some. They are excellent for writing notes. I use them for the an understatement. original long term memory; that is paper and pencil to write down The parliamentary secretary and two Liberal members spoke on things and they fit into the pocket very nicely. the motion when it was debated previously. They said that it was I went through that transition and was involved when we had to already covered in the legislation from 1985. boot up computers the long way, by flipping toggle switches on the front , then hitting a button so that it would start the process of With all due respect, it really does not. When a person is getting itself organized and then from there on it would proceed in a apprehended, having created a computer virus to disrupt commerce logical fashion. and to mess up computers of individuals and businesses, the only thing we can do now is charge them under the 1985 act, and it is Since then, I suppose we have progressed, although some would simply called mischievousness. It is really an inadequate classifica- say we have regressed, to the point where we now have pocket tion of crime. 7470 COMMONS DEBATES November 26, 2001 Private Members' Business When the Liberal members say that it is already covered and that Issues relating to cyber crime, such as hacking and malicious virus they will vote against it because it is redundant, I believe very dissemination, have been widely recorded over recent months and strongly that they err. Whereas this is private members' business, and have caused governments, industry and public much concern. by tradition private members' business has been a free vote, I Criminal conduct on the Internet has increased as we have seen the encourage Liberal members and all other members to dissociate use of the Internet increase. Therefore, it is important that this and themselves from party control and use their own heads to decide that related issues receive the proper attention of parliament and the this is a motion which should be supported. government in general. The very fact that the private members' committee deemed this That being said, I would like to restate this government's motion votable means that it considers it an important issue for commitment to ensuring that our laws keep pace with technology. Canadians. We should all support the motion and I strongly urge We would like to continue to foster the relationships the government members to do this. has created with law enforcement and industry to ensure that the laws and tools used to combat cyber crime fulfill the needs of law There is also a problem that cannot be solved by legislation. I have enforcement without hampering our industry's competitive advan- said often in the House and in some of my other public speeches that tage. there is not a law that we can pass which can make people good. I am concerned about the fact that there are people who use their I would also like to commend the member for Elk Island for his considerable talents for these very destructive ends. comments about education in the schools regarding the appropriate, responsible use of this technology. Canada continues to be a world Having worked in computer machine language way back in the leader in the area of battling cyber crime, crimes that in many earlier years, I recognize that it is not just everyone who can create a instances do not respect orders. virus. It requires that one have considerable knowledge. I have done a bit of work in this regard in terms of writing computer language We have forged many international partnerships and will continue programs and operating disk systems. It is not difficult to change the our involvement at the G-8, the Council of Europe and the UN, to code so that the disk speed, the way it reads the sectors and the tracks name but a few, to effectively deal with these issues. off disks is altered on the disk operating system. Those are simple parameters that can be put in, but they can cause havoc. The hon. member's motion, although well intentioned, is none- theless redundant. He has characterized it as a provision that will fill To write a program or create a file which inserts these variations a void in Canadian criminal law. My answer to that assertion is: no it into the very structure of the disk operating system and thereby will not. Sections 342.1 and subsection 430(1.1) of the criminal code disrupt the operation of the computer and destroy files or totally were designed with the dissemination of malicious computer viruses destroy the management of the hard disk on a computer is very in mind. They are also worded in a manner which could make them malicious. I am really nonplussed when I consider that people can applicable to some future still unknown form of mischief. somehow convince themselves that it is okay to use their talents and abilities to write such machine language programs that would cause One of Canada's legal traditions is to draft legislation in a general these problems. manner so that it does not target a particular thing. In other words, in Canada a fraud is a fraud whether committed in person or via Ï (1115) computer. We do not need a separate offence to cover computer I strongly support this motion that would create a separate fraud. category of crime with separate and more stringent punishment for violations in this area.