PAYMENTS IN UEU OF TAXES HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AL~D PUBLIC LAL~DS OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS SECOND SESSION ON H.R. 1181 TO INCREASE FEDERAL PAYMENTS IN LIEU OF TAXES TO UNITS OF GENERAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES S.455 TO AMEND TITLE 31, UNITED STATES CODE, TO INCREASE FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO UNITS OF GENERAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT FOR ENTI­ TLEMENT LANDS, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC APRIL 28, 1994 Serial No. 103-85 Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 82-544 WASHINGTON : 1994 For sale by the U.S. -Government Printing Office Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402 ISBN 0-16-044847-6 COMMI'ITEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES GEORGE MILLER, California, Chairman PHILIP R. SHARP, Indiana DON YOUNG, Alaska, EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts Ranking Republican Member AUSTIN J. MURPHY, Pennsylvania JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah NICK JOE RAHALL II, West Virginia BARBARA F. VUCANOVICH, Nevada BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota ELTONGALLEGLY,Califurnia PAT WILLIAMS, Montana ROBERT F. (BOB) SMITH, Oregon RON DE LUGO, Virgin Islands CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming SAM GEJDENSON, Connecticut JOHN J . DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee RICHARD H. LEHMAN, California JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado BILL RICHARDSON, New Mexico JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana Samoa KEN CALVERT, California TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota SCOTT MciNNIS, Colorado LARRY LAROCCO, Idaho RICHARD W. POMBO, California NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii JAY DICKEY, Arkansas CALVIN M. DOOLEY, California CARLOS ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto Rico KARAN ENGLISH, Arizona KAREN SHEPHERD, Utah NATHAN DEAL, Georgia MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam SAM FARR, California LANE EVANS, Illinois PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii THOMAS J. BARLOW III, Kentucky THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin JOHN LAWRENCE, Staff Director STANLEY ScOVILLE, GeTU!ral Counsel DANIEL VAL KlSH, Republican Staff Director SUBCOMMI'ITEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PuBLIC LANDS BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota, Chairman EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, NICK JOE RAHALL II, West Virginia Ranking Republican Member PAT WILLIAMS, Montana ROBERT F. (BOB) SMITH, Oregon PETER A. DEFAZIO, Oregon CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota JOHN J . DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee LARRY LAROCCO, Idaho JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaji JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California CARLOS ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto Rico RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana KARAN ENGLISH, Arizona KEN CALVERT, California KAREN SHEPHERD, Utah JAY DICKEY, Arkansas MAURICE HINCHEY, New York ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam AUSTIN J. MURPHY, Pennsylvania BILL RICHARDSON, New Mexico PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii RICHARD HEALY, Staff Director CHARLES (STAN) SLOSS, Counsel CHARLENE SEAMENS, Clerk ALLEN FREEMYER, Republican Counsel on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands (II) CONTENTS Page Hearing held: April 28, 1994 ...... .......................................................... ................. 1 Text of the bills: H.R. 1181 .......................................................................................................... 4 s. 455 ······························································ ···· ················ ······················· ········ 7 Background on H.R. 1181 and S. 455 ................... ................... ............................ .. 17 Member statements: Hon. Bruce F. Vento ................................................. ..... .......................... .... .... 1 Hon. Robert F. (Bob) Smith .......................................... ........................... ....... 19 Hon. Pat Williams ........................................................................................... 19 20 ~~~ : ~~ Ts~~h!rd: · : : :: ::::::: :: :::: ::: ::::: : :::: :: : : ::::: : : :: : :::: : ::: :::: :: : : ::: ::: :::: : : ::: : : ::: ::: :::: 21 Hon. James V. Hansen ..................................................................... ... ............ 37 Hon. Joel Hefley ............... .............................................................. .... ............. 43 Hon. John T. Doolittle ......................................................... ............... ............. 43 Witness statements: Hon. Bart Stupak, a Representative in Congress from the State of Michi- gan ......... ... ...... .................................................. ........ ..................... ................ 44 Larry Benna, special assistant to the Director, Bureau of Land Manage- ment, Department of the Interior, Washington, DC .......... ....................... 64 Panel consisting of: Noel Williams, commissioner, Lincoln County, MT ............. ................. 91 LouiSe Liston, commissioner, Garfield County, UT, also representing the National Association of Counties as chair of the Public Lands Steering Committee ........... ...................... ................... ........ .................. 94 George Enneking, commissioner, Idaho County, ID, and chair, Na- tional Association of Counties Natural Resources Committee .......... 115 William J . Mattson, First District commissioner, St. Louis County, MN ............ ...... ...................... ....................................... .... ...................... 121 Lee Allen, chair, Board of Commissioners, Box Elder County, UT ...... 123 Material submitted for the hearing record from: Hon. .Wally Herger, a Senator in the U.S. Congress from the State of Cal1forrua: Prepared statement .................................................................. 25 Hon. Orrin G. Hatch, a Senator in the U.S. Congress from the State of Utah: Prepared statement ....................................................... .. ............. 28 Hon. Mark 0. Hatfield, a Senator in the U.S. Congress from the State of Oregon: Prepared statement ................................................................... 33 Jerome C. Muys, Will & Muys, P.C., attorneys at law, Washington, DC: Comments on the proposed legislation and attached excerpt from "One Third of the Nation's Land, a Report to the President and to the Con- gress by the Public Land Law Review Commission," June 1970, chapter 14, "Tax Immunity" ........................................................... .... ...................... 50 Hon. James V. Hansen: Letter to Hon. Roy Romer, Governor of Colorado, from Hon. Bill Clinton, then-Governor of the State of Arkansas, dated July 23, 1991 ································································································· 80 APPENDIX APRIL 28, 1994 Additional material submitted for the hearing record from: Hon. Bill Richardson, a Representative in Congress from the State of New Mexico: Prepared statement ........... ......................................... ....... ..... 135 Hon. Don Young, a Representative in Congress from the State of Alaska: Prepared statement ......................... ................... .. ............... ........... .............. 136 (III) IV Additional material submitted for the hearing record from-Continued Hon. Jay Dickey, a Representative in Congress ·from the State of Arkan- Page sas: Prepared statement .............................................................................. 140 Bill Hedden, vice-chairman, Grand County Council, Moab, UT: Prepared statement dated April 7, 1994 .................................................................... 141 H.R. 1181, TO INCREASE FEDERAL PAYMENTS IN LIEU OF TAXES TO UNITS OF GENERAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES S. 455, TO AMEND TITLE 31, UNITED STATES CODE, TO INCREASE FEDERAL PAYMENTS TO UNITS OF GENERAL LOCAL GOVERN­ MENT FOR ENTITLEMENT LANDS, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES THURSDAY, APRIL 28, 1994 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS, FORESTS AND PUBLIC LANDS, COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met at 10:00 a.m. in room 1324 of the Long­ worth House Office Building, the Honorable Bruce Vento (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE F. VENTO Mr. VENTO. The Subcommittee on National Parks Forests and Public Lands, will be in order. As Members have been notified, we are meeting to hear two simi­ lar but not identical bills that would increase the authorization or appropriation of payments to units of local government under the so-called PILT program. This is far from a routine hearing in terms of these issues, or a done deal in terms of where we are going. Based on the amount of authorization on an annual basis that would be provided, these are very substantial and permanent authorization measures and the appropriation of funds to achieve this will be difficult at a time when other types of State and local government aids over the past decade have shrunk or been eliminated. So I just would tell my colleagues that I am very concerned about the policy path proposed here, and for a variety of other reasons for the two bills-one introduced by Congressman Williams of Mon­ tana and the other, the Senate measure, recently passed. I expect most Members are familiar with the PILT program under which counties and other local units of government receive payments with respect to entitlement lands. (1) 2 The payments are set at a per-acre basis subject to a cap based on population of the county or other units of local government. Under current law, the per-acre entitlement is calculated in two ways: First at a rate of 75