This transcript has not been proof read or corrected. It is a working tool for the Tribunal for use in conducting these appeals. It has been placed on the Tribunal website for readers to see how matters were conducted at the main oral hearing of these proceedings and is not to be relied on or cited in the context of any other proceedings. The Tribunal's judgment in this matter will be the final and definitive record 1 Friday, 12th March 2004 2 (10.00 am) 3 (Proceedings in camera) 14 (10.10 am) 15 (Proceedings in open court) 16 THE PRESIDENT: Mr Ronnie, you are still under oath. 17 MR CHRISTOPHER RONNIE (continued) 18 Cross-examination by MR WEST-KNIGHTS (continued) 19 Q. Good morning, Mr Ronnie. We had been looking at 20 the note of the discussions between you and the OFT on 21 26th February 2002. I would like to take you back very 22 briefly if I may to Umbro pleading file 2, the yellow 23 file, and we are inside tab C of that bundle which is of 24 course an annexure to Umbro's own pleading. 25 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and we are in the file note; is that 8 1 right? 2 MR WEST-KNIGHTS: We are in the note of the pleading which 3 starts a few pages into that. I was simply going to go 4 to two matters in here. First to paragraph 54, which 5 the tribunal will find at running page 20 in that file, 6 in that transcription by Umbro's lawyers. 7 Do you have paragraph 54 there, Mr Ronnie? 8 A. I do, thank you. 9 Q. Would you read it to yourself first, please? (Pause). 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. You told the tribunal that you have a clear recollection 12 of meeting Mr Ashley immediately after his visit to see 13 Mr Whelan and Mr Hughes; yes? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And his report of what was said there. But may 16 I suggest looking at paragraph 54 that as at 17 26th February 2002 you had no such clear recollection. 18 A. If you read the paragraph I correct myself to say that 19 the meeting was taking place because Mr Ashley had made 20 me aware of that. 21 Q. Just look to see what you said first: 22 "Christiane Kent asked if anybody had informed 23 Chris Ronnie that the June 8th meeting was taking place. 24 Chris Ronnie said that JJB had told him about it when he 25 had played football for JJB the day after the meeting." 9 1 You played football with JJB on the 9th? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You went on to say that you did not think that you had 4 been aware that the 8th meeting was taking place until 5 after it. You then corrected yourself and said that you 6 had been aware that the meeting was taking place because 7 Mike Ashley had told you. 8 I bluntly read that as saying that even then, you 9 only corrected yourself to say that Mike Ashley had told 10 you that it was going to take place. 11 A. But I corrected myself. 12 Q. Yes, that is the correction: I had not been aware that 13 it was taking place before it happened -- oh, sorry, 14 Mike Ashley told me. Read it. 15 A. I do not need to. 16 Q. Why not? 17 A. Because I know that I corrected myself as it says there 18 and I knew that the meeting was taking place. 19 Q. How did you come to get it wrong before you corrected 20 yourself? 21 A. Because, as you would imagine in a meeting such as 22 that -- it was the first time I had ever been to such 23 a meeting and it was fairly unusual and I corrected 24 myself, as you can see, towards the end of the sentence. 25 Q. You say this is important. 10 1 A. Sorry? 2 Q. You say this is an important event, the meeting? 3 A. Yes. It was an important event. 4 Q. So the sequence of events would have stuck in your mind, 5 the meeting of 8th June between Ashley and the others, 6 he comes straight to your office and tells you all about 7 it. 8 A. They would have done, you are absolutely right but as I 9 have explained, the meeting on the day with 10 Christiane Kent, I was in a new environment, I had never 11 been in there. Maybe nerves got involved. 12 Q. We will just move on, one more point, it is over the 13 page at page 21 of the bundle, page 9 of the transcript. 14 A. Sorry, can you tell me whereabouts this is? 15 Q. Over the page, page 21. I am going to read this 16 starting at paragraph 62: 17 "Christiane Kent asked what Umbro did as a result of 18 the pressure from Manchester United." 19 Because Mr Marsh had explained that Umbro was always 20 subject to the overriding pressure of the sponsorship 21 contract, can you see that? 22 THE PRESIDENT: Sorry, can you just read the passage you 23 want to go to, Mr West-Knights. 24 MR WEST-KNIGHTS: I will start at the top of the page. 25 Paragraph 61: 11 1 "[Simon Marsh] explained that Umbro was always 2 subject to the overriding pressure of the sponsorship 3 contract not being renewed beyond 2002. 4 "62. Christiane Kent asked what Umbro did as 5 a result of the pressure from Manchester United. 6 "63. Simon Marsh said that Umbro would sometimes 7 have conversations with retailers, but ultimately it was 8 out of Umbro's hands, it was up to the retailer's to 9 price the jerseys. It was typical of the clubs to apply 10 pressure to manufacturers. Simon Marsh said it was 11 important to bear in mind the pressure that Umbro was 12 under. Umbro had to be seen to be going through 13 the process of contacting retailers, even if, in fact, 14 this did not take place. It was important for Umbro to 15 protect its longer term commercial interests." 16 Are you with me so far, Mr Ronnie? 17 A. Yes, thank you. 18 Q. "Peter McGuigan explained that Umbro protected its 19 relationship with Manchester United through design, 20 delivery, developing the Manchester United brand, and by 21 offering a high level of service. Umbro was hopeful 22 that this would assist in renewing the contract. 23 Manchester United had told Umbro that the discussions on 24 renewal were confidential, but Umbro was then told by 25 David Hughes of Allsports, the official Manchester 12 1 United retailer, that Umbro's contract would not be 2 renewed. It was then leaked that Nike had been given 3 the deal, and both Manchester United and Nike were 4 terrified that the retailers which Umbro would supply 5 would do something on price. 6 "NS [that is Mr Stressle, who has been at these 7 proceedings] asked what Umbro did in face of this 8 pressure from Manchester United. 9 "Peter McGuigan said Umbro absorbed it. 10 "Christiane Kent asked if Umbro had any discussions 11 with retailers about the retail price of Manchester 12 United kit. Peter McGuigan said that he personally had 13 not had any such discussions. 14 "Simon Marsh said that he would often have 15 conversations with Chris Ronnie or Phil Fellone and 16 mentioned the pressure being applied by Manchester 17 United, but this was very much Umbro going through 18 the motions. 19 "Christiane Kent asked if SM did anything in 20 response to this pressure. SM said that he did not. 21 "70. Chris Ronnie said that, although Umbro was 22 under pressure from Manchester United, Umbro did not 23 have any discussions with the retailers, fortunately for 24 Umbro it did not need to do so because the retailers 25 took the matter into their own hands and agreed 13 1 the retail price amongst themselves." 2 That is the passage. In its context I want to put 3 to you that the only observation that is recorded here 4 as having been made by David Hughes about the Manchester 5 United contract is that he is said to have made 6 a statement of fact that the contract would not be 7 renewed, either an opinion or a statement of fact. Yes? 8 A. Who did he make the statement to? Myself at 9 the meeting, is that what you are referring to? 10 Q. No, I think you understood the question perfectly well, 11 Mr Ronnie, but let me try again. Mr McGuigan is 12 reporting that Umbro had been told by David Hughes of 13 Allsports that Umbro's contract would not be renewed. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, did you remember that or understand that to be, as 16 it were, a leaking by Mr Hughes of information which 17 he had authority to give, a leaking by Mr Hughes of 18 information that he should not have given or just 19 a guess on the part of Mr Hughes? 20 A. I could not tell you if it was a guess by Mr Hughes, but 21 he certainly made the statement to me in the meeting at 22 his office, where he made it very clear that if we did 23 not get the club under control in his view, we would not 24 be renewing the contract.