IICSA Inquiry - Anglican Church Investigation 11 July 2019 1 Thursday, 11 July 2019 1 tab A6, chair and panel, at ACE027643. It is a 226-page 2 (10.00 am) 2 document with 111 exhibits, so if I can just identify, 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Day 9 of 3 have you had an opportunity to read this document 4 this public hearing. Ms Scolding? 4 recently? 5 MS SCOLDING: Good morning, chair and panel. This morning, 5 A. I got up at 5 o'clock this morning to do so. Yes, 6 we will hear evidence first from Mr Graham Tilby. 6 I have. 7 MR GRAHAM TILBY (sworn) 7 Q. Is it true, to the best of your knowledge and belief? 8 Examination by MS SCOLDING 8 A. Yes, it is. 9 MS SCOLDING: Mr Tilby, thank you very much for coming back 9 Q. I think, from the 113 exhibits, we can tell, because 10 to give evidence. I also know that you have sat at the 10 this witness statement is updating this investigation as 11 back, so you know what I'm about to say to you, which 11 to what has been happening in the church 12 is, this isn't a test of memory. Please feel free to 12 between March 2018 and now, that there appears to have 13 refer to any notes you may have. 13 been a significant amount of activity. What I'd really 14 We can stop as often as you need, but we will be 14 like to do is take you through some of those things. 15 taking a break at around 11.15 am, in any event. There 15 There is no way we can go through, paragraph by 16 are obviously three bundles in front of you, but we will 16 paragraph, the extent of your witness statement, or even 17 also be getting documents up on the screen, and if you 17 get up all the exhibits, so what I'm going to do is try 18 need those to be enlarged, please let us know and we can 18 and identify what are possibly the central issues, and 19 do so. 19 we will obviously have the rest of those documents and 20 We have six witness statements from you. Your most 20 exhibits to look at, for which we obviously are 21 recent is at -- seven. Sorry, I apologise. We have 21 grateful. 22 seven -- I have obviously missed the seventh. We have 22 So you are the National Safeguarding Advisor. What 23 seven witness statements from you. Please can I ask you 23 is that and what team do you have around you? 24 to turn to your sixth witness statement, which is what 24 A. I was appointed in February 2015 as the first full-time 25 we are principally concerned with today, which is 25 National Safeguarding Advisor. The inquiry has heard Page 1 Page 2 1 evidence previously from Elizabeth Hall, who held that 1 Q. So this is the team as it currently is. As 2 role. There was a transitional arrangement after 2 I understand, you are leaving your role at the end 3 Elizabeth left, before I arrived in February 2015. So, 3 of September? 4 in effect, at that point, I was the full-time National 4 A. Mmm-hmm. 5 Safeguarding Advisor with a very part-time 5 Q. And another individual is coming in to be the Director 6 administrator. 6 of Safeguarding from the end of July. So there is 7 Since then, the team has grown to around 18 7 a little bit of overlap? 8 full-time equivalent staff. 8 A. Yes. We will probably talk about the assurance route, 9 Q. Ralph, would you mind getting up ACE026732_014. It is 9 the National Safeguarding Team, at some point this 10 behind tab B16, chair and panel, but I wouldn't -- so 10 morning. As part of that, it was very clear that there 11 this is the organogram as to the structure as it 11 needed to be a Director of Safeguarding, so that 12 currently is? 12 appointment was made. Sir Roger Singleton had held that 13 A. Yes, and, as always, things are dynamic and have 13 post from January. That appointment was made and she 14 changed, probably, since this diagram was drawn. In 14 will be starting end of July and there will be some 15 effect, as the National Safeguarding Advisor, I had 15 restructuring, I guess, as that moves forward. 16 responsibility then for building the team. I was 16 Q. Just generally, you identify at paragraph 11 of your 17 given -- not a blank cheque, but a certain sense of 17 witness statement that the pace of -- that whilst a lot 18 freedom to say, "What do you need?", when I arrived, and 18 of matters have accelerated, there is still much to do. 19 I came up with three key posts to start with: 19 Why do you say that? 20 a full-time training manager; a full-time senior 20 A. I think, if I can say, the church was starting from 21 casework manager; and a full-time policy manager, who 21 a very low base when I arrived. There's always a risk 22 then became the deputy. So that was the kind of first 22 of -- history starts when someone arrives, and I need to 23 iteration of the team, if you like, with an 23 acknowledge the work that had been done, particularly in 24 administrator, and the team has grown, as you can see, 24 those transition arrangements, people like Jill Sandham 25 since then. 25 and Kate Wood, who you have heard from previously. But Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry - Anglican Church Investigation 11 July 2019 1 I think all would say we were starting from a low base 1 A. But I think the prevailing mood is a positive one. We 2 in terms of putting in what I have described as an 2 are in a time of transition again, I think, with various 3 infrastructure, the foundational blocks of safeguarding. 3 sort of personnel changes. But I think, you know, 4 I talk about, in my previous statements, the national 4 there's a sense that we have achieved a lot but we still 5 safeguarding framework, so trying to draw together key 5 have a lot more to do. 6 components -- legislation, national policy, national 6 I think the positive thing that I see developing, 7 training, quality assurance -- and then work around 7 I think culturally, certainly within Church House, is 8 theology and infrastructure. 8 that there is a recognition not just because of 9 So I think my comment about, there's a lot to do, 9 the appointment of a director, but I think a recognition 10 reflects the fact that we have had to do a lot since 10 amongst other directors that safeguarding is now their 11 2015, which I think is evident from my statement. But 11 business. So it's no longer something that's sitting in 12 there is still much more to do, particularly around, 12 a certain part of Church House that's, "That's 13 I think, survivor support and engagement, which no doubt 13 safeguarding. It's done over there"; I think there is 14 we will come back to. 14 evidence now of the team and others engaging with the 15 Q. What do you see as the prevailing mood of your team, you 15 team and I think a kind of more cross-cutting nature of 16 and your team, in terms of what -- 16 safeguarding. 17 A. Tired. 17 Q. You say that the church came from quite a low base. 18 Q. -- there is still to do? Tired, yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 A. I think the team -- I think the team is full of some 19 Q. If I were to say that the church, probably, when you 20 very dedicated professional people who work very hard, 20 arrived, was maybe at a 2 out of 10, where do you think 21 and some of whom work very long hours, including myself. 21 it is now out of 10? 22 I think the team has been through some difficult times, 22 A. I think it's hard to say -- it's hard to put a figure on 23 and that, again, is drawn out through the assurance 23 it. I think there are elements -- if I describe the 24 review. 24 baseline that I think I arrived and I inherited, some 25 Q. Which we will come to and talk about a bit later? 25 policy, but not a full suite of national policy and Page 5 Page 6 1 guidance. I think we're close to that. There's still 1 safeguarding people that are now in dioceses. 2 much more to do, and which we will come back to, no 2 I think the thing that I would score lower is our 3 doubt, but I think the kind of core policies and 3 responses to survivors. I don't think we have 4 guidance were under development. Gaps in legislation, 4 significantly changed enough on that. And I think also 5 some of which I think have been filled, but there's 5 we have also managed to begin to improve maybe the 6 still more to do, and no doubt we will talk about the 6 joined-upness, the fragmented governance that I would 7 CDM at some stage.