PROCEEDINGS AT HEARING OF DECEMBER 16, 2020 COMMISSIONER AUSTIN F. CULLEN INDEX OF PROCEEDINGS Witness Description Page Proceedings commenced at 9:30 a.m. 1 Discussion re witnesses 1 Barry Butler Examination by Mr. McCleery 3 (for the commission) Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Proceedings adjourned at 12:02 p.m. 124 Proceedings reconvened at 12:12 p.m. 124 Barry Butler Examination by Mr. McCleery (continuing) 124 (for the commission) Examination by Ms. Chewka 148 Colin King Examination by Ms. Magonet 169 (for the commission) Examination by Mr. Rauch-Davis 186 Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Colloquy 195 Proceedings adjourned at 1:44 p.m. to December 17, 2020 196 INDEX OF EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION Letter Description Page No exhibits for identification marked. INDEX OF EXHIBITS No. Description Page 383 Curriculum Vitae of Colin King 6 (i) 384 Barry Butler Career History Summary 8 385 Kevin McMeel Career History Summary 11 386 Slide deck - Criminal Assets Bureau Structure and Legislation – Kevin McMeel - December 16, 2020 56 387 Civil Processes and Tainted Assets: Exploring Canadian Models of Forfeiture, Michelle Gallant – Chapter 8 - 2014 183 (ii) Discussion re witnesses 1 1 December 16, 2020 2 (Via Videoconference) 3 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 9:30 A.M.) 4 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. The hearing is now 5 resumed. Mr. Commissioner. 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Madam Registrar. 7 Yes, Mr. McCleery, do you have conduct of 8 matters this morning? 9 MR. McCLEERY: I do. Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. 10 Today we have a panel of witnesses that will be 11 giving evidence regarding civil asset forfeiture 12 in the Republic of Ireland. The panel includes 13 Dr. Colin King from the School of Advanced 14 Studies at the University of London and 15 Detective Inspector Barry Butler and Mr. Kevin 16 McMeel, both of the Irish Criminal Assets 17 Bureau. I understand that Dr. King and 18 Mr. McMeel prefer to affirm and that Detective 19 Inspector Butler will be sworn. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Witnesses, please unmute yourselves. 22 Thank you. Would each of you state your full 23 name and spell your first name and last name for 24 the record. Let's start with Detective Inspector 25 Butler. Discussion re witnesses 2 1 A (BB) Barry Butler, B-a-r-r-y B-u-t-l-e-r. 2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And Dr. King. 3 A (CK) Colin King, C-o-l-i-n K-i-n-g. 4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And Mr. McMeel. 5 A (CK) Kevin McMeel. That's K-e-v-i-n 6 M-c-M-e-e-l. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 8 BARRY BUTLER, a witness 9 called for the 10 commission, sworn. 11 COLIN KING, a witness 12 called for the 13 commission, affirmed. 14 KEVIN MCMEEL, a witness 15 called for the 16 commission, affirmed. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. McCleery. 19 MR. McCLEERY: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Just to 20 give you a bit of a road map on the plan for 21 today, Mr. McMeel has generously prepared a 22 presentation that provides an overview of the 23 organization and operations of the Irish 24 Criminal Assets Bureau and the operation of the 25 Proceeds of Crime Act. Before we get to that Barry Butler (for the commission) 3 Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Exam by Mr. McCleery 1 presentation, I'm going to ask a few 2 introductory questions to introduce our 3 witnesses and put that presentation in context. 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. MCCLEERY: 5 Q And just before we begin. For the benefit of 6 our panelists as we go through the evidence 7 today, I'm going to do my best to direct my 8 questions towards the witness I think best 9 positioned to provide an answer, but I certainly 10 encourage each of you to jump in and feel free 11 to add comments whenever you feel you've got 12 something you'd like to add. 13 So I'll just begin with some introductory 14 questions with Dr. King. Dr. King, you're a 15 reader in law and the director of postgraduate 16 research studies at the Institute of Advanced 17 Legal Studies in the School of Advanced Studies 18 at the University of London; is that correct? 19 A (CK) Correct. 20 Q And in 2010 you completed a PhD at the 21 University of Limerick, including a thesis 22 titled "The Confiscation of Criminal Assets: 23 Tackling Organised Crime Through a 24 'Middleground' System of Justice"; is that 25 right? Barry Butler (for the commission) 4 Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Exam by Mr. McCleery 1 A (CK) Correct. 2 Q And since that time you've continued to study 3 and write about the subject of civil and asset 4 forfeiture, among other subjects, and have 5 published regularly on that topic? 6 A (CK) Yes. 7 Q And some of your publications include a 2013 8 article written with Martin Collins titled "The 9 Disruption of Crime in Scotland Through 10 Non-Conviction Based Asset Forfeiture"? 11 A (CK) Correct. 12 Q It also includes a book chapter "'Hitting Back’ 13 at Organised Crime: The Adoption of Civil 14 Forfeiture in Ireland" in a book titled Dirty 15 Assets: Emerging Issues in the Regulation of 16 Criminal and Terrorist Assets, which you edited 17 along with Clive Walker? 18 A (CK) Yes. 19 Q It also includes another chapter titled "Civil 20 Forfeiture in Ireland: Two Decades of the 21 Proceeds of Crime Act and the Criminal Assets 22 Bureau," a book Chasing Criminal Money: 23 Challenges and Perspectives on Asset Recovery in 24 the EU? 25 A (CK) Yes. Barry Butler (for the commission) 5 Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Exam by Mr. McCleery 1 Q And it also includes another chapter titled "The 2 Difficulties of Belief Evidence and Anonymity in 3 Practice: Challenges for Asset Recovery," and 4 that was a 2018 chapter in The Palgrave Handbook 5 of Criminal and Terrorism Financing Law? 6 A (CK) Yes. 7 Q And last but not least, a chapter titled 8 "International Asset Recovery: Perspectives 9 From Ireland" in a book titled The Development 10 of Transnational Policing: 11 Past, Present and Future in 2019? 12 A (CK) Yes. 13 MR. McCLEERY: And, Mr. Commissioner, those 14 publications are already before you as 15 appendices to the exhibit marked as exhibit 375. 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 17 MR. McCLEERY: And for your reference, 18 Mr. Commissioner, that exhibit also includes 19 copies of the Irish Proceeds of Crime Act, the 20 Irish Criminal Assets Bureau Act and the 2019 21 annual report of the Criminal Assets Bureau. 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 23 MR. McCLEERY: Madam Registrar, can we see Dr. King's 24 CV. 25 Q Dr. King, do you see a document on the screen Barry Butler (for the commission) 6 Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Exam by Mr. McCleery 1 before you? 2 A (CK) Yes. 3 Q And this is a copy of your CV which you provided 4 to the commission? 5 A (CK) Correct. 6 MR. McCLEERY: And, Mr. Commissioner, if we could 7 have that marked as a next exhibit. 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. I think we're at 9 380 -- 10 THE REGISTRAR: 383. 11 THE COMMISSIONER: 383. Thank you. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 383. 13 EXHIBIT 383: Curriculum Vitae of Colin King 14 MR. McCLEERY: Thank you. And, Madam Registrar, we 15 can take that down now. 16 Q Turning to you next, then, Detective Inspector 17 Butler. You've been a member of the Republic of 18 Ireland's national police force since 1993; is 19 that correct? 20 A (BB) That's correct, yes. 21 Q And in 2018 you were appointed to your current 22 role of detective inspector with the Criminal 23 Assets Bureau? 24 A (BB) Yes, that's correct. 25 Q And can you give us a brief description of your Barry Butler (for the commission) 7 Colin King (for the commission) Kevin McMeel (for the commission) Exam by Mr. McCleery 1 responsibilities in that role. 2 A (BB) Yes, I can. My role as a detective 3 inspector attached to the Criminal Assets Bureau 4 involves supervision of the team rooms that are 5 attached to the Criminal Assets Bureau, the 6 investigation team rooms. I suppose my function 7 primarily is on the investigative side involved 8 in operations, the preparation and submission of 9 proceeds of crime investigation files. And I 10 also have a liaison role with various detective 11 inspectors located around the country attached 12 to various police units and stations. 13 I also perform a role, an international role 14 linking in with our colleagues in the ARODS, the 15 recovery offices, and also the CARIN network as 16 well. So that's primarily my role and function. 17 MR. McCLEERY: Thank you very much. Madam Registrar, 18 can we see Detective Inspector Butler's career 19 history. 20 Q And this is a sort of summary of your career 21 that you prepared and provided to the 22 commission? 23 A (BB) Yes, it is. Yes. 24 MR. McCLEERY: Mr. Commissioner, could we have that 25 marked as the next exhibit.