Vol. 707 Wednesday No. 23 28 January 2009 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions EU: Welfare Benefits Prisons: Young Offender SP Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill: Pre-legislative Scrutiny BBC: Disasters Emergency Committee Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Committee (Third Day) Gambling Act 2005 (Gaming Machines in Bingo Premises) Order 2009 Gambling Act 2005 (Variation of Monetary Limit) Order 2009 Motions to Approve Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Committee (Third Day) (continued) Grand Committee Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Committee (Fourth Day) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. 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Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN, compiled by the House of Commons, gives details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscription: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 243 EU: Welfare Benefits[28 JANUARY 2009] EU: Welfare Benefits 244 Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I cannot give House of Lords the noble Lord those data off the top of my head. I am not sure whether we record them fully in respect of Wednesday, 28 January 2009. foreign nationals because, for the most part, under these co-ordinated arrangements, nationality is not a 3pm key determinant of benefit payments. I can give him a number for the total payments made to UK nationals Prayers—read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord and EU citizens living in the EU in the year to Bishop of Carlisle. September 2008: it was about £1 billion, most of which was pension entitlements. EU: Welfare Benefits Lord Swinfen: My Lords, are claimants able to draw Question benefits in more than one country at the same time? Asked By Lord Roberts of Llandudno To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, it is unlikely. arrangements they will make to enable citizens of The co-ordination arrangements, which are not about European Union countries to access their own nation’s harmonising benefit systems across the 31 countries welfare benefits wherever they are in the European involved, seek to allocate, particularly for workers, to Union. which country’s scheme you pay contributions to and therefore which state is responsible for the benefits. It The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, is therefore unlikely that there would be overlap, but Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of we are dealing with 31 systems here and they are not Luton): My Lords, the EU member states have put in totally aligned. place social security co-ordinating regulations that ensure that citizens can access their own nation’s benefits Lord Soley: My Lords, I endorse my noble friend’s if they have entitlement to them. Entitlement depends comments about the complexity of this issue but is on a number of factors such as the current place of there not a case for the European Union to look at work, if in work; the last place of work, if retired; and other ways of helping? I do not think that it is easy to where their centre of interest lies. These rules do not harmonise all the arrangements but I give the simple discriminate between EEA citizens on the grounds of example of the problems presented by a Polish person nationality. needing emergency housing in London, when there is housing available, but no work, in their home town in Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I am grateful Poland. There is a case for looking at voluntary schemes for that Answer. The Minister will be aware of the that would allow for transfer between countries and number of migrants who are legally resident in the provide additional help to enable people in those UK whose jobs collapse, especially in the present circumstances to go home instead of remaining homeless economic circumstances, and who are then homeless on our streets or on the streets of other countries. and without any income whatever. Wouldthe Government be prepared to explore with our European partners arrangements whereby people who had paid their Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble contributions, say in Poland or in Lithuania, would be friend raises a very interesting question. I do not think able to draw on their country’s resources if they were that the matter is currently under review but I shall in need because they had had a hard time in the certainly take back his suggestion to colleagues in the country where they were living at the time? department. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a very Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, given complex area. There are cross-border issues around the unprecedented collapse of the building industry in benefits. There are existing co-ordination arrangements this country, in which many visiting workers from under which posted employees—people who are posted eastern Europe have been employed, has the department for just 12 months to another state—can access and any estimate of how many workers in that industry are contribute to their benefit system back home. EEA from eastern Europe, and how many of them are now nationals, including those from the accession countries, unemployed? can access income-related benefits in the UK under certain circumstances, including if they have been working and registered for at least 12 months and are Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the answer is seeking work. There are more restrictive arrangements no. Clearly, we have unemployment data which are for A8 and A2 nationals but there is still an opportunity, broken down into broad sectors but I do not believe with that proviso, to access income-related benefits. that the data distinguish between people from particular EU states or from outside. Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, how many people are in the position that the Minister has just described? Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, does the noble In other words, to how many foreign residents are we Lord agree that it might be helpful if he published the paying social security benefits and what is the global answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, amount of the benefits they are receiving? Lord Skelmersdale, if and when he is able to discover it? 245 EU: Welfare Benefits[LORDS] Prisons: Young Offender SP 246 Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, if the information Will the Minister tell us what steps are being taken to is available in the form requested I shall certainly cleanse the Prison Service of its attitude towards other ensure that it is made available. The point I was inquiries? seeking to make is that access to a range of benefits—we are dealing with income-related benefits, contributory Lord Bach: My Lords, I have to refute the noble and non-contributory benefits, with different rules for Lord’s suggestion as strongly as I can. From a particular each—does not necessarily rest on nationality. Therefore, case he generalises to an absurd extent. The fact is that nationality is not necessarily recorded when a benefit the Prison Service and all those who work in the is claimed or, indeed, awarded. prisons part of the Ministry of Justice have a hard job to do. There are some extremely difficult cases. I do Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, does the not think that it aids prisoners in any way if someone Minister agree that if these folk who fall on hard times with as much experience and who is as widely respected in the UK, but are not of the UK, could access their as the noble Lord is on this subject generalises to the own national benefits at least they would not be extent that he has done in the House today. It does penniless and that would resolve many of the problems them a huge disservice. If I may say so, he should of rough sleeping and homelessness, which are increasing choose his words rather more carefully.