April 13, 1988 Public Accounts 1 Title: Wednesday, April 13, 1988 pa [Chairman: Mr. Pashak] [10:01 a.m] approximately the amount of money it cost the province for me to come to Edmonton and appear before their committee. I just MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I think we can call the meeting to thought I’d insert that parenthetically into the record. I don’t order. I move that we call the clock 10 o’clock. think the budget that we have circulated is excessive. It’s a Well, we’re going to be relaxed today and informal, because budget that permits both Mr. Moore and I to attend the Halifax it’s just an introductory meeting and we’re not conducting the conference. regular business of the committee. In the past we’ve built a little larger budget than we actually I’d like to welcome all of the previous members back. I note thought we would require in order to cover contingencies. that there are a number of new members that I’d like to especially We’ve never spent the amount of budgeted money, and that welcome. Mrs. Shirley McClellan and Mr. Alex money has always gone back into the Treasury. So I think what McEachern are new members to the committee, as is Mr. you’re seeing here is a very lean budget. If any of you are interested Taylor. I’d also like to introduce the new members to some of in the copy of the Members' Services motion that dealt our committee secretaries. Ann Quinn has been the secretary of with this, I am prepared to circulate that as well. the committee over the past number of years. I think, as we all Mr. Chairman, I’d just maybe like to add a word of two know, she probably will be leaving shortly for a bit of a recess, about the conference, and I think it is an important conference to and Louise Empson will be filling in for her. I don’t know if it’s attend. We find out what other public accounts committees do, on a permanent basis yet or not, but that'll be resolved, I guess, and there is quite a range in terms of the way in which committees over the next little while. across the country carry on their business. The federal public accounts chairperson meets with us as well. The federal public MRS. QUINN: We’ll see how it goes. accounts committee not only reviews past expenditures -- it’s a much smaller committee -- they also look at current spending MR. CHAIRMAN: We’ll see how it goes, as Ann says. And projects. They will bring deputy ministers before their committee with us today, as he always is, is the the Auditor General of the and grill them quite intensively in an effort to determine province of Alberta, Mr. Don Salmon. whether proposed expenditures are justified or not. The Ontario So with that, I’d like to ask the co-chairman of our committee public accounts committee operates in a similar fashion. to take the Chair, and I’d like to make just a very, very brief There seems to be a range in terms of the way in which public report on our budget and some upcoming plans that we have in accounts committees operate. On the one end of the range the following year. So, Mr. Moore, if you’d care to take the you have committees in which the members work quite well Chair, maybe I’ll just sit over here. together to make sure that government departments spend money in terms of the way they’ve been directed by their legislative [Mr. R. Moore in the Chair] authorities. In these situations usually it’s not the minister that comes before the committee; it’s a deputy minister or it's MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well, members of Public Accounts, departmental members who’ve actually spent the dollars. The we’re into it for another session, and I’m sure it’ll be committee's main function in that kind of situation is to make interesting and lively as always. The Member for Edmonton- sure that government policy as passed by the Legislature is reflected Meadowlark seems to be in agreement. We’re in agreement with in actual expenditures. the agenda that was distributed here a few days ago? Are there any In some cases the committees get more into a contemporary additions anybody would like to make? kind of politics, and they repeat in their committees exactly I take it you’re all in agreement, so then we will go to the what seems to go on in the Legislatures. That is, cabinet ministers chairman's report. It’s listed on the agenda in two sections: the are brought before the committees, and members who are in committee budget for this year and the hosting of the 1989 national opposition parties try to nail the cabinet ministers politically, conference here in Alberta. I’m sure a lot of you have and of course members of the government party try to make the looked at that hosting of a conference and are wondering what cabinet ministers look good. it’s all about. This is a standard procedure, that all the chairmen I think that here in Alberta, over the last two years at least, and vice-chairmen of Public Accounts meet once a year on a we’ve come down somewhere in the middle. What I have rotation basis through the provinces of Canada. Ten years ago attempted to do as Chair of this committee is to at least make sure next year Alberta had it and it's already run around to our turn that all the questions that are presented in committee are tied back again. It’s a major undertaking, and the chairman wanted to go into either the Auditor General’s report itself or into the public over that with you to give you some preliminary ideas, so I accounts documents. I think that tends to take the kind of partisan would ask Mr. Pashak if he would give us an overview of all politics out of it to a considerable extent, and I would prefer, if that. possible, to carry on with that approach during this session. MR. PASHAK: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman. Well, having Perhaps with that I could just pause at that part of my report at the moment circulated a copy of our budget first of all, and ask if any of the other members would like to make any for this year, this is for your information. I guess it's my points or direct any questions through the Chair to me. responsibility to prepare this budget and submit it to the Members' Services Committee. Actually, I submitted a budget that MR. McEACHERN: Has the committee considered, then, was somewhat larger than this to make sure that both Mr. Moore whether anyone besides the Auditor General should appear and I could travel to Halifax this year for the annual meeting of here? Has the committee discussed the idea of bringing deputy the Chairs and co-Chairs of public accounts committees. The ministers or assistant deputy ministers forward? I assume you Members’ Services Committee in their wisdom decided to cut don’t bring ministers forward. Is that right? the budget back somewhat, and I’ll circulate the minutes of that meeting for your information. They cut it back, by the way, by MR. PASHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, through the Chair, may I 2 Public Accounts April 13, 1988 deal with that? No, the Auditor General probably will be -- this country. One of their major concerns at this point in time is is yet to be approved on the agenda, under Scheduling of what they call value-for-money audits, and you may want to ask Guests. All right? So it’s further on in today’s agenda. But Mr. Salmon some questions about that when he appears before normally the procedure is that the Auditor General does appear us over the next two sessions. In the meantime I’ve received a before the committee for the first two meetings because it takes number of copies of a publication, Value-For-Money Auditing about that amount of time to go through his report with him. Standards, that was issued in March 1988 by the Public Sector And then the committee members themselves will determine the Accounting and Auditing Committee of the Canadian Institute order in which departments will be represented. of Chartered Accountants. I’m pleased to be able to mention to It’s really up to the cabinet minister the way we conduct our you that Mr. Don Salmon is now a member of that committee. business here. The cabinet minister usually appears himself -- I’d like to have these distributed and circulated to all members in fact, in almost every instance that I can think of, has appeared at this time. himself -- and he brings with him members of his department. Just to conclude my remarks on this portion of the agenda, Sometimes it’s just one or two people. Sometimes, depending there does seem to be a determined view at all levels of the public on the department, he might bring as many as eight or 10 people from one end of the country to the other that taxpayers really from his department to answer members’ questions. want to know that their tax dollars are being wisely spent and that these dollars are being spent in accordance with government MR.