IICSA Inquiry - Birmingham Investigation 13 November 2018 1 Tuesday, 13 November 2018 1 under 13, you first met James Robinson because he was 2 (10.30 am) 2 a trainee priest at the church? 3 WITNESS RC-A31 (affirmed) 3 A. That's correct, yes. 4 THE CHAIR: Good morning, Ms Carey. 4 Q. You were attending the church, and your family; is that 5 MS CAREY: Good morning, chair. 5 right? 6 Examination by MS CAREY 6 A. I was attending the church, but more significantly, the 7 MS CAREY: For the purposes of these proceedings, you are 7 church was attached to my primary school. 8 known as A31. 8 Q. I think your parents were Catholics? 9 A. Okay. 9 A. Devout Catholics from rural Ireland who moved over to 10 Q. I hope that you have in front of you a bundle containing 10 Birmingham in the 1950s. 11 your witness statement? 11 Q. All right. In fact, Father Robinson came to your house 12 A. Yes, I do indeed. 12 on a number of occasions? 13 Q. If at any time you need a break, please just let me 13 A. Numerous occasions. He was very, very friendly with my 14 know, and we can see that you have got your glasses on 14 mother and father, who were devout Catholics. My father 15 and they also have some shades? 15 was on the parish council. 16 A. Yes, I have light, sort of, sensitivity issues, yes. 16 Q. I think by the summer of 1970 or 1971, did 17 Q. There is no difficulty in you putting your shades down 17 Father Robinson invite you and your brothers to go for 18 if you need to, and if it will help you give evidence; 18 a ride with him in his car? 19 all right? So do that if you need to. 19 A. My recollection is that's one of the first sort of key 20 A. Okay. 20 incidents where he was developing a strategy, yes. 21 Q. A31, I want to take you back, please, to the early 21 Q. Just help us, before we get to the actual car trip, just 22 1970s -- 22 tell us, what was Father Robinson like, as far as you 23 A. Yes. 23 were concerned? 24 Q. -- and your dealings with Father James Robinson, as he 24 A. Okay. The problem with this is the nature of memory and 25 then was, now James Robinson. I think, when you were 25 recall. It is very hard for me to reconnect with the Page 1 Page 2 1 10-year-old boy I was, in terms of how he saw 1 parents say, "No, you can't go", or anything like that? 2 Father Robinson, but I'll do my best, yeah. I was 2 A. No, why would they? My parents had six children. My 3 surrounded by Irish Catholic culture, where priests were 3 dad drove a bus 50 hours a week and my mum worked 4 omnipresent. My mother used to organise what were 4 100 hours a week keeping the house going for all of us, 5 called house masses, where, instead of just in the 5 so any help from any source would be -- 6 church on a Sunday, say on a Wednesday evening there 6 Q. Was welcome? 7 would be a house mass and a priest would turn up and 7 A. Especially from a Catholic priest who had taken a shine 8 people from the community, the local houses, would be 8 to one of their sons. 9 invited and there would be a mass, and afterwards there 9 Q. Now, I think you said in your statement that the first 10 would be refreshments. I mean, I call it a little 10 few occasions that you and your brothers went out in 11 Dublin, because if you walked down the street where 11 Robinson's car, there were no sexual advances or 12 I lived, there were -- sorry, little Ireland, there were 12 anything like -- do you want to have a look at your 13 people from every county on the island of Ireland. So 13 statement? 14 for me, as a little boy, he was just another priest. 14 A. Yes, this is -- 15 When he first arrived, you know, I didn't see 15 Q. Turn up -- 16 anything evil about his aura or anything like that. It 16 A. I have it. 17 wouldn't have occurred to me. 17 Q. -- tab 1. 18 Q. Did you trust him? 18 A. Got it. 19 A. I trusted everyone. I was a 10-year-old boy. 19 Q. We are on the second page. 20 Q. Did your family trust him? 20 A. Okay. 21 A. Absolutely and totally. I wouldn't say they just 21 Q. This is taken from your statement that you made to the 22 trusted him; I would almost say, if it's not blasphemy, 22 police? 23 that they worshipped him. 23 A. For the criminal trial, yes. 24 Q. So come that summer of '70 or '71, when you and your 24 Q. In 1985. 25 brothers would go for a ride in his car, did your 25 A. Ah, right. So this is the statement that a detective Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 2DY IICSA Inquiry - Birmingham Investigation 13 November 2018 1 collated from what -- the information I gave him. So 1 kids, you know, whatever he thought we might be 2 I've signed and agreed -- there's nothing in this 2 interested in. I was interested in this book because it 3 statement I disagree with, but that's -- they are not my 3 was full of gory executions and, you know, people 4 words, they're the police's interpretation of my -- 4 chopping people's heads off and little boys tend to 5 Q. We understand that. 5 like, you know, extreme violence, sort of -- so I was 6 A. Okay. 6 looking at this book, anyway. Father Robinson sat down 7 Q. But you have said that actually you don't disagree with 7 next to me, beside me, my mum brought him a cup of tea 8 it and you can see there that you told the police that 8 with the best china, yeah, and he moved towards me to 9 there was a few occasions where you and your brothers 9 discuss the contents of this book. 10 went out in the car? 10 My recollection is that under the pretext of sort of 11 A. Yes. 11 following the context of the book, that he, you know, 12 Q. There were no sexual advances, but there came a point 12 started moving his hand towards my ... yeah. 13 when Robinson suggested that you and he went out alone 13 Q. Towards your genital area? 14 in the car? 14 A. Yes, towards my genital area, and did indeed, yes. 15 A. Yes. 15 Q. And did indeed touch you? 16 Q. Without going into all of the detail, A31, is it whilst 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 you were in his car on your own that he first started to 17 Q. So there was an incident where, effectively, under the 18 sexually abuse you? 18 guise of looking at the book with you, he sexually 19 A. Right. Well, the actual first recollection I have of 19 abused you? 20 him is when he came -- he was around the house 20 A. He was probing -- you know, that -- he was scouting, you 21 constantly. But there's one particular occasion he came 21 know, am I a prospect? 22 around and I can picture it now: the coal fire in one 22 Q. Did that happen before or after the occasion that you 23 corner of the room, the settee, coffee table in front of 23 were in the car with him? 24 me, with a book about Aztec and Mayan history. My dad 24 A. Oh, no, that was before. 25 used to get all sorts of books from jumble sales for his 25 Q. That was before, right. Page 5 Page 6 1 A. Definitely. 1 A. He did indeed, and stayed -- we stayed overnight. 2 Q. So then there was abuse in the car, where I think you 2 Q. Was there any sexual abuse at his mother's house? 3 told the police, on that occasion, he touched you over 3 A. Oh, yes. Yes. 4 your trousers. You said to him, "No, it's wrong", and 4 Q. At your house, you told us he came to visit? 5 he said to you, "It's only a bit of fun"? 5 A. Yes. 6 A. Okay. Again, this is collated -- 6 Q. Did he abuse you at your house? 7 Q. Is that -- 7 A. Yes, he was allowed to stay overnight and share a bed 8 A. That's all perfectly true. But what I want to say is, 8 with me, a double bed. 9 he actually kidnapped me and took me out onto 9 Q. What about at church? 10 Staffordshire Cannock Chase Moor and kept me hostage for 10 A. I was an altar boy, which -- an altar boy officiates as 11 six hours to break me down.