PM - Downer in Indonesia to sign new treaty http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/printfriendly.pl?http://www.abc.... ABC Online PM - Downer in Indonesia to sign new treaty [This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1787583.htm] PM - Monday, 13 November , 2006 18:34:00 Reporter: Mark Colvin MARK COLVIN: The Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer is on the Indonesian island of Lombok today, where he and the Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirajuda will sign a new security agreement. We still don't know the detail of what's in it, though in general it's designed to improve border security, intelligence and cooperation on combating terrorism. But lawyers and foreign affairs experts are keenly awaiting the release later tonight of the exact wording of the treaty. Don Rothwell is Professor of International Law at the Australian National University. He says what he'll be looking for first is the treaty's effect on the so-called "Howard Doctrine" of Australia's security role in the region. DON ROTHWELL: The Australian Government has been quite forceful in putting forward a view that it continues to retain the right to use force against terrorists who might be based in neighbouring countries such as those in South East Asia or in the South Pacific. And the Government has been very consistent in pursuing this position, so much so that last year when it became a party to the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation, it expressly reserved its position on that issue in terms of maintaining the right to continue to exercise self-defence. Now to date, we haven't had any direct confirmation as to what the Government's position is with respect to the Australia-Indonesian Security Treaty. And that clearly is a matter that will be subject to clarification once we see the text, I expect. MARK COLVIN: It has been extraordinarily sensitive, hasn't it? The Government has tried very hard to suggest that it wouldn't mean them sending commandoes into Indonesian soil or anything like that. But clearly Indonesia was offended by it at the time. DON ROTHWELL: Yes, and in fact in comments that have sought to clarify how the doctrine would operate, Mr Downer often says, well, the doctrine wouldn't apply to a country such as Indonesia, or perhaps, Malaysia. However, if as the Government insists, Australia retains the right of self-defence, and that is an inherent right of any country under international law, then clearly we would be seeking to retain that right vis-a-vis Indonesia, one would presume. MARK COLVIN: So, what would you be looking out for in the small print of this treaty that 1 of 3 5/11/2012 12:30 PM PM - Downer in Indonesia to sign new treaty http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/printfriendly.pl?http://www.abc.... will show you which way it has gone? DON ROTHWELL: Two things I'd be looking for in particular, Mark, is whether or not Australia, and indeed Indonesia are seeking to retain their position under the United Nations Charter, which of course confirms the right of self-defence in international law. And secondly, whether or not the treaty places any particular obligations upon either Indonesia or Australia to deal with non-state actors such as terrorists. We might be potentially posing a threat to each other's country. And if so, what exactly are the obligations that the treaty might be seeking to impose upon Indonesia, particularly given that Australia has suffered a number of terrorist attacks upon Australian interests in Indonesia, to deal with this particular issue. MARK COLVIN: Presumably the Government would say that they've got very good relations with the Indonesians, and this isn't likely to come up. But as an international lawyer, I suppose what you deal with is the fact that these things can always break down? DON ROTHWELL: Precisely, and indeed we only have to think back that it was only in 1999 that the Indonesian Government lost significant control of its own military, that we had the outbreak of violence in East Timor following the independence vote there. So, yes we need to be very cautious about signing on to instruments which are not designed to last just for a few years, but will in fact have a quite a considerable lifetime. And so we have to be prepared to deal with not only the situation today, but also in the medium to long term. MARK COLVIN: A lot of what you do concerns maritime law as well, and of course those waters between Australia and Indonesia are always contentious, particularly because of people coming in boats from other people using Indonesia as a staging post, and Australia wanting to stem that flow. What's this treaty likely to contain? DON ROTHWELL: We've only had broad references to maritime security at the moment, but we do know that Dr Nelson, in the comments earlier this year, did flag that this was one of the issues that would be on the agenda for this treaty, and clearly in the wake of the arrival of the West Papuan refugees earlier this year, and concerns about the potential for more outflow of West Papuan refugees. And of course the fact that the Government was unsuccessful in having the migration zone limited so it wouldn't apply to refugee arrivals on the mainland. One would have thought that the Government, in addition with the Indonesians, would be concerned to try to ensure collaboration in terms of maritime security patrols to prevent, possibly, Indonesian vessels leaving West Papua in particular, and head for the Australian coastline. That sort of cooperation in maritime surveillance is something that Australia is employing in other parts of the world, especially in the southern ocean. Why not apply it in the Arafura and Timor Sea? MARK COLVIN: You mean, Australian ships sailing pretty close to Indonesian coastlines? 2 of 3 5/11/2012 12:30 PM PM - Downer in Indonesia to sign new treaty http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/printfriendly.pl?http://www.abc.... DON ROTHWELL: Entirely, and of course there might be a dual perspective here. As we know, Australia has had lot of difficulty in terms of illegal Indonesian fishing within Australia's Exclusive Economic Zones. Will the agreement permit or tolerate or anticipate greater collaboration so that Australian patrol boats would in fact be able to enter the Indonesian Exclusive Economic Zone to carry out joint patrols with the Indonesians, not only to deal with illegal fishing, but also perhaps with asylum seekers, seeking to head for Australia? MARK COLVIN: Professor Don Rothwell, Professor of International Law at the Australian National University. © 2012 Australian Broadcasting Corporation Copyright information: http://abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm Privacy information: http://abc.net.au/privacy.htm 3 of 3 5/11/2012 12:30 PM.