Vol. 733 Wednesday No. 232 30 November 2011 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns Interpol Community Justice Centre: North Liverpool Education: Music Business of the House Timing of Debates Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Order of Consideration Motion Charities Bill [HL] Third Reading Health and Social Care Bill Committee (9th Day) Prevent Strategy Question for Short Debate Health and Social Care Bill Committee (9th Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. 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THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 233 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns[30 NOVEMBER 2011] Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns 234 this House for many months. The issue must be that, if House of Lords people are doing what anyone else would call work, it is biased in favour of the people who can afford to Wednesday, 30 November 2011. have mummy and daddy give them enough to live on, as opposed to those people who are not in that position. 3pm Therefore, there should be a minimum that people get paid. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. Baroness Wilcox: Internships can be paid or they can be worked on as volunteers, where we would Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns encourage travel expenses to be paid. We are committed Question to improving social mobility; we are clear that job opportunities should be based on what you know and 3.06 pm not just who you know. We are encouraging businesses Asked By Lord Lucas to provide internships with financial support to ensure fair access. I am sure that is what the noble Lord To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they wanted me to say. will require that interns who work for an organisation for longer than two months should be paid at or Lord Razzall: Bearing in mind the noble Baroness’s above the rate of Jobseeker’s Allowance. statement that there is no such thing as an intern, why was the Prime Minister auctioning an internship at a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Tory fundraising event? Does she not agree—and it is Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness implicit in her answer to the previous questions—that Wilcox): My Lords, the Government have no such the question of payment for internships is an issue of plans. Internships and work experience, paid or unpaid, social mobility? Will she confirm that the Government offer an excellent opportunity in helping to bridge the firmly believe that interns should not be just from the gap between education and the workplace. It is important wealthy middle class, but also people who cannot that we do not close down these opportunities. afford to work? We are asking businesses to offer internships openly and transparently and provide financial support to Baroness Wilcox: We are concerned that requiring ensure fair access. This financial support could consist all interns to be paid would actually reduce the number of either payment of at least the appropriate national of available internships. With so many of our young minimum wage rate or alternatively payment of reasonable people not able to get jobs at this time, we think that out-of-pocket expenses in compliance with national anything that will give them experience of the workplace minimum wage law. and help them is a very good thing. We want to strike a balance between reducing exploitation and maintaining Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am grateful for half a loaf. the maximum number of internship opportunities. As Will the Government encourage all employers—and I have said, we are committed to improving social notably Parliament—to take on more interns at a time mobility and that what matters is what you know, not when that would be a service to the nation, particularly who you know. As the Chancellor made clear yesterday, those children and young people who cannot afford to we will work hard wherever we can to support youngsters go without income? Will she, in the spirit of the youth trying to get into work and get the experience that contract announced yesterday, ask my right honourable they so badly need. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make sure Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: The Chancellor announced that there are no prosecutions or fines for those employers yesterday that he is asking the public service independent who choose to make up for hard-up interns the jobseeker’s pay review bodies to examine by next July the possibility allowance which they lose by becoming interns? of introducing regional or local pay. Could the Minister please confirm that the Government have no plans to Baroness Wilcox: In answering this Question, I find follow the logic of that and in turn to examine the it interesting to discover that there is no such thing as possibility of paying allowances and benefits, such as an intern; there is no legal definition of an intern at the jobseeker’s allowance, on a regional or local basis? all. One is either a worker or a volunteer. Therefore, I can agree with pretty well everything my noble friend Baroness Wilcox: As far as I know, we are sticking has said, because some people will be paid and some with the minimum wage as the basis of what we are will not be paid. In the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement doing. Internships are paid based on the minimum yesterday, my right honourable friend said: wage. Anything which is paid above that is purely a “In order to make the education and skills system more voluntary arrangement. Arrangements made between responsive to employer needs”, employers and employees are based upon that. the Government would, among other things, “increase young people’s access to high quality work experience”. Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, we should never I hope he finds that answer helpful. condone exploitation masquerading as internships. I am sure many of us have come across those, not least Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I congratulate the in the media industry. However, does the Minister noble Baroness on her high-class piece of sophistry a agree with me that one of the most effective ways of moment ago about there being no such thing as an fostering workplace experience is to get schools and intern, when we have been debating it off and on in universities to have ever closer links with employers? 235 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns[LORDS] Interpol 236 Baroness Wilcox: Yes, I agree with my noble friend Lord Henley: My Lords, the first point I ought to Lady Wheatcroft about closer links with employers, make is that the United Kingdom will not arrest or schools and colleges, and explaining the opportunities extradite any person solely on the basis of a red notice. available. Often people miss out on opportunities because I cannot confirm or deny, in the particular case the they do not know about them. Maybe their home noble and right reverend Lord referred to, whether backgrounds have made it impossible for them to Mr Benny Wenda has or has not received a red notice know, so it is absolutely essential that we get closer from the Indonesian Government through Interpol. I links. I do so agree with her. can confirm that there are arrangements in place whereby objections can be made to what Interpol have Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, following done. I referred in my opening answer to the Commission the point of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, will the for the Control of Interpol’s Files. I would hope that Minister say how she will ensure fair and equal access those who are interested in this will take up those to internships, regardless of parental income? measures as is appropriate. Baroness Wilcox: There is fair and equal access to internships. We will watch to make sure that we continue Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, will the Minister it.