1 MEDIA EDUCATION F O U N D A T I O N 60 Masonic St. Northampton, MA 01060 | TEL 800.897.0089 | [email protected] | www.mediaed.org Culture, Politics & Pedagogy A Conversation with Henry Giroux Transcript Introduction GIROUX: My name is Henry Giroux, and I’m at Mc Master University here in Hamilton Canada. I am the global TV network chair in English and Communications. On Paolo Freire GIROUX: I was a high school teacher in the early, in the early sixties and I was working with a principal a vice principal who was raising lots of questions about my pedagogy And I have been putting students in circle and sort defying what was then a very regimented sort of militaristic kind of utterly barring sterile form of approach to teaching. And he didn’t like it and he was asking me all sorts of questions about how I could justify this and the fact of the matter is I didn’t have the language to justify it. I felt it was right but I couldn’t really talk about it in a way that was convincing and somebody had given me a copy of Paulo Freire’s “Pedagogy Of the Oppressed” in which all of a sudden I had a language the allowed me in a very fundamental way to sort not only explain what I was doing but to get a greater sense of why I was doing it, and soon afterwards I wrote a long review of Paulo’s book and I sent it to a journal called “Interchange” actually in Canada who then sent it to Paulo to review and Paulo wrote back something like this should have been reviewed the day before yesterday this should have been published the day before yesterday. He had an interesting sense of humor. He then wrote to me and said “I just love this, this is really captures the essence of my work,” and the a correspondence began and then we you know we eventually became friends and we became co-editors of a series we became co- MEDIA EDUCATION FOUNDATION | www.MEDIAED.org This transcript may be reproduced for educational, non-profit uses only. © 2006 2 authors over the years and so you know it developed into a long friendship of about fifteen to seventeen years. I think that what I loved about Paulo Was that he never separated good food and romance, poetry, and joy from his pedagogy And I remember once when we first met him in Boston, he came to Boston, and we were sitting at the house and we were making dinner and he was, he seemed a little hesitant and I had later found out that he told my friend who was with him that night, he said if the food is really bad, he said, “let’s be kind and then we’ll make an excuse to go to a Portuguese restaurant.” Well, the food was then served and he threw up his hands and he said, “Thank God.” He said: “Giroux, this is so good!” I mean it was perfect in the sense of how he both integrated his life into everyday life. He an incredibly attentive listener and not so as to suggest he was simply being cordial he was alive with the possibility of always learning something from someone else, and it made you feel very different, it made you, I mean, it never made you never felt you were in the presence of somebody who was simply interviewing himself and I think that what made him so incredibly powerful was not just how smart he was but how his presence so fully embodied, in more, in unlike anybody I’ve actually been around fully embodied what he believed I mean it was a very rare, and I’m really not romanticizing this, you know I mean a very rare combination of a humility, a commitment, and an enormously resourceful intelligence. Freire’s Legacy GIROUX: I mean you’ve got to understand something, you know Paulo’s work emerged in you know, in Brazil. In the mist of an attempt to take seriously the relationship between education and social change, right. In an attempt to sort of dignify the subject of learning, the student, you know, in an attempt to in some way be attentive to questions of contextualization, I mean, to link education to particular forms of individual and social empowerment, I mean Paulo’s pedagogy was forged in a kind of struggle to link education to justice. While those conditions are different today in a sense the conditions that exist this move towards a general notion of authoritarianism in the United States seen in it’s militarism, you know, seen in it’s market fundamentalism, you know, seen in kind of horrible religious fundamentalism that has nothing to do with genuine religious compassion and insight. MEDIA EDUCATION FOUNDATION | www.MEDIAED.org This transcript may be reproduced for educational, non-profit uses only. © 2006 3 All speak to the need for a kind of education that Paulo talked about, one in which the subject is confirmed, right. One in which learning is linked to notions of critical engagement. One in which schools are not merely seen as test centers. I think that what Paulo’s language does is provide one of the few resources around that we have in the mist of a dominant educational policy that is the antithesis of what Freire talked about. For me, Paulo was a model of what it meant to link the political and the personal. Meaning that the political wasn’t some abstraction removed from everyday life that manifested itself in the form of books and essays that were then read by six people, you know I mean his work was consistently linked to social issues that he took seriously, that in some way suggested some sort of connection between what we do as individuals, as educators, as teachers, and what it meant to engage public life, so that that was very important to me. On a more personal level, I mean I was always inspired by his commitment, I mean he, you know he never fell prey to a kind of cynicism, you know that seemed to suggest, that you know it’s not worth it, or politics doesn’t matter, or other people don’t matter, and that’s always been very inspiring for me and I think that in some ways while you know it’s not true as some people would say that I’m merely a Freirian, you know, certainly his work is provides one valuable resource in my work that consistently nourishes it, politically, ethically, democratically. From Theory to Practice GIROUX: I think around the theory practices, I think it’s a genuinely important question, I mean I mean many teachers really don’t understand two things, right. They don’t understand the relevance of theory for what they do, and in many cases they often find themselves in places where time is such depravation. That it becomes difficult to really think about what role theory might play in their lives, or they find themselves in situations where theory has been expunged from the possibility if what they do as teachers because they have been utterly deskilled and technicised, right. So I think that that’s, we have to begin with that kind, that qualification. MEDIA EDUCATION FOUNDATION | www.MEDIAED.org This transcript may be reproduced for educational, non-profit uses only. © 2006 4 I mean, I think the second issue is you should never engage in a practice for which you’re not reflective about that practice. I mean you can talk about a practice without theory but to do that is deny the fact that it is already informed by theoretical presuppositions. Many of which you are just simply not aware of. So there real, there always is a connection, it’s just a question whether you are awe of it, that’s the really basic issue. Around the question of theory and how it translates, I mean I think that there are all kinds of questions that emerge theoretically that are enormously important for understanding how we would operate on a day-to-day basis. What I don’t think theory does do and what it should not do is provide a prescription for what to do that bypasses the need to understand that you have to think about what you do in the context in which you find yourself. Theory is a resource that’s how we should view it and we draw from that resource in order to for instance raise questions about the relationship between knowledge and power, you know why do we choose this over that, right? To raise questions about how do you understand the cultural capital that kids often bring to the classroom, and how might that work, you know how might it become a learning resource we need theory to sort of in some way reflect on the role that we play as intellectuals as teachers, I mean how do you theorize that? How do you theorize your own role as an intellectual in the classroom, I mean that all of those questions are theoretical questions that point to theoretical resources it’s better to be reflective about what we do than not to be. So the question of whether theory matters is a bogus question. It always matters. The question is whether you are awe of how it matters and whether you have a grasp of those traditions.