1144/1/100/2/255558 DhDhaarma WhWheeeel • ViVieew totoppic - DifDiffefererennce bbeetwtweeeen rerecocoggnnizing rigrigppa & rereaalizilizinng eempmptitinneess? A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism Search… Search Advanced search Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? Forum rules Topicic locked Search this topic… Search 318 posts • Page 44 ofof 16 • 1, 2, 3, 44, 5, 6, 7 ... 16 Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56096) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56096) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56096) byby alwayson » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:48 am I hate the Pali Canon because it is not the original recession of the Mahāsāṃṃghikas Last edited by alwayson (./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1388) on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total. Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56097) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56097) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56097) byby deepbluehum » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:52 am Namdrol wroote: Andrew108 wrote: A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are the same ‐ this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher to student. Many people make this mistake. Such people never understand Dzogchen. You have to be a little lenient with the rime students. This is how they hear Dzogchen, with a Mahamudra twist. You should couch your comments with a caveat that this is how your school or your teacher or your understands Dzogchen, because other folks' teachers may have presented it the way Andrew did. Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56098) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56098) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56098) byby Andrew108 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:28 am hhttttpp::////ddhhaarrmmaawwhheeeell..nneett//vviieewwttooppiicc..pphhpp??ff==4488&&tt==55226611&&pp==5566009977##pp556600997 11//99 14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic - Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? The point is that Rigpa has no continuity or time within it. It is not the case that intrinsic awareness is held from moment to moment. There is no time for intrinsic awareness. Belief in a continuity is deluded. In Mahamudra there is no time. In Dzogchen there is no time. Intrinsic awareness is often called 4th time or beyond time because it is emptiness, empty of continuity. Any awareness that is related to a continuing present is not genuine rigpa. If you have the conditions then you 'get this' during transmission. The solidity of dualistic vision falls away ‐ even only briefly. I base my understanding on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje. IF I am not a dzogchen practitioner because of holding this view then that's fine by me. I'm happy about that. Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56101) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56101) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56101) by Sönam » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:35 am In my opinion (humble of course) speaking about bhumis is the most incertain case, the most unknown subject in buddhism. No one (or nearly) as a clue of what is bhumis, what state it represents ... you can navigate all your present life in believing that you will never reach bhumis, that you attained first bhumi or even sometime that you attained 8th bhumi. So funny, and of course in a discussion every one will admit that bhumis are for high level bodhisattvas ... and that it's for no one of us. How one will be freed in this life if one is thinking in this way ... Sönam Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56111) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56111) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56111) by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:28 pm Andrew108 wrote: The point is that Rigpa has no continuity or time within it.. This is a trivial point and does not go beyond Madhyamaka. N Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56113) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56113) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56113) by Andrew108 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:02 pm http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5261&p=56097#p56097 2/9 14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic - Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better to check these things with a teacher. Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56115) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56115) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56115) by Sönam » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:17 pm Andrew108 wrote: This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better to check these things with a teacher. It is not up to him to say so, but Loppon Malcolm Smith Kunga Namdrol is a teacher ! ... http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/User:Namdrol (http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/User:Namdrol) SÖnam Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56116) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56116) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56116) by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:18 pm Andrew108 wrote: This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better to check these things with a teacher. It is a trivial point because time is merely a convention. There is no time or continuity at all, other than conventionally. In Dzogchen, that which is shared with Madhyamaka can be considered trivial since we are not discussing something unique and specific to Dzogchen teachings. Also the term "intrinsic awareness" is a translation misnomer that has, unfortunately, gained broad currency. Using the term "intrinsic awareness" for "rig pa/vidyā" is very limiting. First of all, the adjective "intrinsic is misapplied. Intrinsic describes a quality that something else possesses. For example, diamonds are intrinsically hard; gold is intrinsically shiny; water is intrinsically wet. [X] is intrinsically aware? The intrinsic awareness of what? Of what is awareness an intrinsic quality? There are other problems to this translation which lead people to reify rigpa as some truly existing ground ala Advaita's brahman. Top http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5261&p=56097#p56097 3/9 14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic - Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56118) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56118) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56118) by Andrew108 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:48 pm Namdrol wrote: It is a trivial point because time is merely a convention. There is no time or continuity at all, other than conventionally. It's hardly trivial since conventions are what dualism is made of and getting stuck in conventions isn't going to get you out of dualistic view. Getting used to the state that is non‐ dual ‐ going beyond conventions is what realization is about and so you get introduced to that ‐ gain confidence in it ‐ don't get shocked by it. You seem to have suggested that recognition of rigpa and realizing emptiness are different. I would suggest that recognition of non‐duality ‐ of going beyond conventions ‐ is what rigpa and emptiness are ‐ they are realized as a unity. What would rigpa/emptiness look like? I'm not a teacher but here is what my teacher has said: ''There is nothing to look at and no one looking, Nevertheless there is an appearance of someone looking— This person looking is self‐arisen and self‐liberated. When you know this, you know the profound point.'' KTGR One has an understanding of the absence of identifiable phenomena but at the same time one has the appearance of awareness. Awareness that is self‐arisen and self‐liberated ‐ therefor not conditioned by dualism. This view is non other than the view of Dzogchen Semde this is also what ChNN calls instant presence. But these are just words that I thought I would right down as respect for your contributions here. But really it's all quite academic and I don't mind the idea that I may be wrong. Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56120) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56120) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56120) by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:51 pm Andrew108 wrote: You seem to have suggested that recognition of rigpa and realizing emptiness are different. Yes, they are quite different. If not, then all people who have recognized rigpa would be first stage bodhisattvas. But they are not. http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5261&p=56097#p56097 4/9 14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic - Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? The second fault of your assertion above is that people who have not realized emptiness will beleive that they had, and such people will than be incurable. I don't mind the idea that I may be wrong. That is a useful personal quality. N Top Report this post (./report.php?f=48&p=56123) Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56123) Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness? (#p56123) by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:11 pm Andrew108 wrote: this is also what ChNN calls instant presence. "Instant presence" is one of the ways in which Norbu Rinpoche translates the term "rig pa", in order to disinguish it from his translation of the term "dran pa", presence, which is usually translated as mindfulness.