Place-based Missions: Mariana Mazzucato in discussion with Finn Williams Online Event 26.03.2021 Public Practice is a not-for-profit social enterprise with a mission to build the public sector’s capacity to improve the quality and equality of everyday places. To close out Public Practice’s Spring 2021 Forum Finn Williams was joined by Mariana Mazzucato, Professor in the Economics of Innovation & Public Value at University College London (UCL) and founding Director of the Institute for Innovation & Public Purpose (IIPP), established, like Public Practice, in 2017. The discussion explored a shared understanding of the role of the public sector in creating value at a local scale. Informed by Mariana’s new book ‘Mission Economy: A Moonshot Guide to Changing Capitalism’, the conversation covered IIPP and Public Practice’s common approach of building the agency of those working in the public interest to shape the institutions that shape our places. A recording of the event is available here. FINN WILLIAMS (FW): I first came across Mariana’s work back in 2013 around the time I first started developing the idea of what later became Public Practice. Her book, the Entrepreneurial State, really helped to stretch the ambition for Public Practice, and made our mission within the world of planning in the UK feel part of a wider movement with the potential to do no less than reshape the economy and society. Mariana established the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose (IIPP) within UCL Built Environment faculty the Bartlett, around the same time Pooja Agrawal and I co-founded Public Practice, and I’ve been lucky enough to take part as a Visiting Professor of Practice. Public Practice worked with IIPP to set up a placement programme as part of their Master of Public Administration (MPA) course, and incoming chief executive, Pooja, sits on the Camden Renewal Commission, which is co-chaired by Mariana and Georgia Gould. So IIPP and PP have a lot in common. We’re about the same age, we’re kind of sister organisations... MARIANA MAZZUCATO (MM): And you, how old are you Finn? FW: I’ll call myself three and a half for the purposes of this conversation. In those three and a half years, IIPP has had this international influence through your work with the European Commission, UN, WHO, many governments. Even intergalactic given your work on space. Meanwhile, Public Practice has been working away at a different scale in places like Havering, Hounslow, Harlow & Gilston, Hemel Hempstead. I’d like to hear what you’ve learned about the value of local and city government coming from that international perspective and now working close to home on projects like the Camden Renewal Commission. How can local government help tackle grand challenges in a place-based way? MM: First of all, thanks for inviting me and a happy anniversary, or happy goodbye. It’s, it’s terrible you’re leaving, but you’re really leaving Public Practice in such a strong position. It’s been fantastic to collaborate with you guys. And talking about age, you came to my birthday party and gave me one of my best presents, which was a big scarf called ‘The Welfare State’, which everyone wants. You have to tell me where you got that. Some quick background in terms of what we try to do in IIPP and then what it has meant at the city, local and regional level. Where we begin is the idea that we’ve got it wrong in terms of what policy is even for. It’s not about what economic theory suggests, which is, at best about fixing markets where you have to wait for markets to fail before you can justify any sort of policy intervention. That gets you incremental change, which is fine if everything’s going well. But, if you change the kind of growth we have - because the economy has not just a rate of growth, but a direction of growth - we need transformational change. So more inclusive growth, sustainable growth and so on requires a different framing, which we call co-creation and co-shaping of markets. We’ve been trying to bring to that new economic thinking, but always with this idea of practice-based theorising. So we might have great new ideas of a market shaping, not market fixing approach, but then when you implement it on the ground, for example when we worked in Scotland with the Scottish National Investment Bank, which we helped to set up, all sorts of things go wrong and questions arise, and that learning on the ground, the kind of learning by doing comes back to the theory. So that’s why I think that we’ve also just really welcomed working with you because the vision of Public Practice to bring designers and planners back into city governments. Because so much of government; city government, regional government and national government has been outsourced to the private sector, so bringing back a lot of the designers and the doers inside government helps us again, to do that learning by doing, trial and error, that kind of welcoming of uncertainty and the experience, which I think also with COVID, we’ve all realised it’s so important to deliver what needs to be delivered. On the city front, to be honest, I don’t really think in the city way, I think the place-based way. So in our work in Biscay in Spain, which has autonomy over its taxation system, one of the things that we’ve been working with them on is what does it mean to have a mission and purpose oriented approach to your local tax policy? Right. First changing the narrative so instead of thinking about levelling the playing field through tax policy, or at best redistributing income through tax policy, how do you tilt the playing field towards a green direction or towards the Sustainable Development Goals by really redesigning the tax policy that rewards certain types of behaviours over others. That’s been really, really interesting because I sometimes criticise tax policy, as you know, that it shouldn’t really be the centre of what governments think about because people don’t do things unless they see an opportunity. Just tinkering around with taxes, sometimes misses what we actually need in terms of the kind of bold investments. But tax is the way that we can really think about incentives that move us towards the kind of behaviours we need again, in order to have more inclusive and sustainable economies. In Sweden, where you’re going, with Dan Hill at Vinnova, which is an innovation agency - like Sitra is in Finland - was interesting because Dan took part in the mission and Industrial Strategy Commission that Lord Willetts and I chaired here in the UK, when Greg Clark was the minister of BEIS, and in IIPP one of the first things we did literally on day one, two and a half years ago, was write a briefing, working paper on the mission oriented approach. I started to speak to Greg Clark about this very early on in the 2017 industrial strategy, which was challenge led instead of sector specific. We helped Greg think about the challenges that the UK was facing around clean growth, healthy ageing, future of mobility, and the opportunities around the data society. The 2017 strategy was built around that. We helped them then think: what does that actually mean then in terms of the concrete things that have to happen on the ground? For example around the future of mobility, some concrete missions around that. Dan took part of that work - Pooja and yourself also participated - and brought that mission oriented approach to Vinnova, which was always interested in matching the kind of challenges that are both innovation led, but also social. He ended up working very closely with Vinnova around the streets mission, this idea of a one-minute street where citizens have, in one minute, all the different services that they require in order to live an active, healthy life. Also the school meal mission, which I think is probably one of the most interesting things they’re doing right now. They have this very high level strategy in Sweden of a fossil free welfare state, which means everything the state does from public education, public health and public transport has that carbon neutral target. They land it very specifically on things like school meals. Imagine if Marcus Rashford here, instead of just having to remind the government that school meals are important for kids during lockdown and also during holiday periods, if we could also use that as a funnel for innovation and for sustainability targets, and that’s what they’re doing in Sweden. So this idea of having healthy, tasty, sustainable school meals is a very specific value chain that is going to have to be produced and getting kids involved in the process of co-design and also monitoring Because if the meals suck, if they’re not very tasty, they’re not going to eat them. I think that’s maybe the most exciting thing about the local work is that it becomes easier. Cities and places are smaller than nation States so really thinking much more critically and non tokenistically about what it means to bring people to the process of designing the missions together. I think on that level, I think the work in Sweden, but also now with the Camden Renewal Commission, it’s the more interesting part of the work, but also the hardest.