A&C_90.qxp_no_90 25/01/2018 14:49 Page 2 Interview Eamon Duffy interviews Gabriele Finaldi In its pursuit of the dialogue between art and Christianity, ACE invited Emeritus Professor of the History of Christianity at Cambridge, to interview the Director of the National Gallery, London.The two met on 21 March 2017. ED: How does your Catholic Christian of art. We’ve all agreed that they are here but in other galleries, and that ‘Seeing identity inform your professional identity important – that’s why they’re in the Salvation’ had emboldened curators to be as Director of the National Gallery? museum, so it’s for the museum to find more explicit about what these pictures the language and the interpretations mean and what their context was. Has this GF: There are several ways of answer - that will make these works of interest. met with resistance? ing this question, but the first is that it I’m slightly hesitant to use the word gives me a natural sympathy with relevant because that’s a much abused GF: I think it encountered a bit of resist - what’s in the National Gallery. About a word, but these objects and what they ance at the beginning because there third of the collection uses Christian signify can be made to have a purchase was awareness that it is worryingly iconography, that means that around on a modern audience. easy to slip from being a professional 700 of the 2500 pictures in the collection museum person, a professional art his - have Christian subject matter, with ED: As a Catholic, are you clear in your torian, to being in some way an apolo - which I have a ready understanding in own mind about the dividing line between gist. And that was something that we many cases. Obviously there are some enabling people who don’t come from a were concerned about. On the other rather abstruse stories of the saints that Christian background to get something out hand we felt that it was very impor - I’m not that familiar with. But the other of the pictures, and actually preaching the tant, when we did that exhibition, to thing which I think my Catholic identi - Gospel? focus on the subject matter and to try ty gives me – and I suppose this comes and understand what I’ve sometimes from childhood – is a sense of the sacra - GF: Well, I think there’s a role to simply called the ‘faith context’ in which these mental nature of imagery; imagery is explain, to put into context, to identify works were made. Now it’s part of the there but it’s about something else. I iconography, a way to help people discipline of art history that you try suppose that came to me naturally, understand what these works were and understand the context in which while growing up, that everything you made for, that is neutral. Inevitably, if works of art are made; but that context see has an additional meaning or fur - you’re speaking to people who have is not just, as it were, socio-economic; ther interpretation or is symbolic of particular sympathy for Christian sub - nor is it just where the work fits into a something else. That forma mentis , I ject matter then you can assume more sort of a sequence of aesthetic develop - think, prepares you well for dealing and focus on aspects you perhaps ments; it’s very much also about how with Christian imagery whether it’s in might not touch on with a more gener - the object was used, what it’s prime churches or museums. al audience. But I do think, that purpose was, how it was perceived because many of these works of art and utilized in the places for which ED: A very high percentage of your pun - were conceived in an evangelising con - these objects were made. So to put that ters, presumably, are not practising Chris - text, that they still can play that role. As at the fore, or to push that to the fore, I tians and don’t have the empathy and the a museum professional it’s for me to think was very useful because it back knowledge that you have, so how do talk about them in a historical context enriches the experience of the objects. I you deal with that? and to try and understand what they’re think it’s been taken up in other exhibi - about. Also to try and understand tions and in the language that is used to GF: Well, I think that one approaches those universal qualities that apply to talk about works of art in museums. great works of art in any museum from us today whatever our beliefs or tradi - It’s a very positive development, and I one’s own standpoint: there will be cer - tions may be. I suppose on a personal don’t notice much resistance to it tain things that are of immediate inter - level they can mean other things too, nowadays. est to you and other things where you certainly for me. need to work a bit harder. And the ED: I was very struck in the wake of ‘See - museum has a very important role as ED: When you were lecturing in Cam - ing Salvation’ with what I think were four mediator, helping to find ways that bridge last month you mentioned ‘Seeing television programmes that Neil MacGre - will give these works of art a purchase Salvation’, the National Gallery exhibition gor did. They seemed to me the best exercis - on an audience not familiar with Chris - mounted at the time of the Millennium, and es in communicating the Christian mes - tian imagery and perhaps with only a the huge impact that it had on you. I think sage I’d seen on television. And he was limited understanding of the historical you also mentioned that the exhibition unafraid really. context. So the museum certainly has a aroused negative remarks, some feeling that mediating role – we used to call it an the confessional undertone should have GF: One of the things that Neil did, and educating role. It’s very important that been more overt. But you also suggested it was very much part of the work the museum facilitates understanding that this exhibition had caused a shift in the around exhibitions, was to find the and appreciation of these great works way that religious art is presented, not just right kind of vocabulary. You know, 2 Art and Christianity 90 Summer 2017 A&C_90.qxp_no_90 25/01/2018 14:49 Page 3 Dr Gabriele Finaldi, Director of the National Gallery © The National Gallery, London this is a very rich and complex society very struck that they were clearly mes - GF : No, not at all. Ultimately we were and it’s certainly not the kind of com - merised by this picture. wanting to compile something that pact society of centuries ago where was representative of the Prado Muse - people did more or less the same things GF: Yes, I think one of the great contri - um. But it was surprising to discover and more or less believed the same butions of the Christian tradition in art that one of the most successful pictures things, so you have to find a language is the creation of a language of beauty was a rather grand seventeenth-centu - which is suitable for a very wide rang - that is universally understandable. ry flower painting by an artist called ing audience, for a very multi-ethnic There are certain images of the Virgin Andrea Belvedere, to which we didn’t audience. And I think the way to do Mary which speak very freely across attribute much importance but in Chi - that is to go for what are the universal cultures and across quite different con - na it was hugely admired. So it was themes that underlie the Christian cepts of beauty. I remember when I was quite surprising the way a Chinese imagery in the National Gallery. In working in Spain at the Prado we did audience reacted to Western imagery. some ways you could do it with other an exhibition of works from the Muse - faith images as well. But the question um which we took to China and one of ED: You mentioned your time in the Prado. remains - what are the fundamental, the works which was most admired – Did working there present you with differ - universal themes that underlie this and we knew that because of anecdotal ent kinds of problems of presentation and imagery? So it meant finding a lan - comments but also because it was the explanation from working here? guage that touched on love, forgive - postcard that sold the most – was ness, mercy, pain and redemption, and Murillo’s Immaculate Conception . And GF: Well, the situation was paradoxi - said – well look, these pictures are ulti - you may think – well, why? – because cal. At the Prado, it being the great mately dealing with the big subject of there’s so much culture to be under - Spanish art museum in a country that what it is to be human. stood in order to appreciate that paint - is Catholic or at least a country of ing or to appreciate it fully. But all that strong Catholic tradition, it would ED: On my way here, after passing baggage wasn’t necessary. Here’s an have been quite difficult to do an exhi - through the central hall, I went first to find extraordinarily beautiful representa - bition like ‘Seeing Salvation’.