COVID-19 Committee Wednesday 18 November 2020 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Wednesday 18 November 2020 CONTENTS Col. SUBORDINATE LEGISLATION............................................................................................................................... 1 Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local Levels) (Scotland) Amendment (No 2) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/374) .............................................................................. 1 Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local Levels) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/344) ........................................................................................................... 28 Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local Levels) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/347) ....................................................................................... 28 COVID-19 (SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC IMPACT OF RESTRICTIONS OVER WINTER) ................................................... 29 COVID-19 COMMITTEE 21st Meeting 2020, Session 5 CONVENER *Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) DEPUTY CONVENER *Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) *Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) *Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) *Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) *Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) *Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Dr Liz Cameron OBE (Scottish Chambers of Commerce) Matt Crilly (National Union of Students Scotland) Professor Jason Leitch (Scottish Government) Willie Macleod (UKHospitality) Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) (Committee Substitute) Michael Russell (Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, Europe and External Affairs) Dr Maureen Sier (Interfaith Scotland) Adam Stachura (Age Scotland) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Sigrid Robinson LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 18 NOVEMBER 2020 2 restrictions and requirements for the different Scottish Parliament levels, and set out changes to the level that applies to three areas of Scotland. All other areas COVID-19 Committee remain in the same level under the regulations. The areas that are affected are Fife Council, Wednesday 18 November 2020 Angus Council, and Perth and Kinross Council local government areas. All of which moved to level three as a result of the regulations. [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:00] The Scottish Government made regulations by Subordinate Legislation way of made affirmative procedure on 12 November, and the regulations came into force on 13 November. Of course, as the First Minister set Health Protection (Coronavirus) out in Parliament yesterday, we will be making (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local further changes to the levels that apply in certain Levels) (Scotland) Amendment (No 2) areas of Scotland. We intend to bring in Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/374) legalisation later this week to move areas from level 3 to level 4, as outlined in the First Minister’s The Convener (Donald Cameron): Good statement yesterday. morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting of the Covid-19 Committee. We have received apologies That is a basic explanation of what the from Beatrice Wishart MSP, who is attending regulations are about. However, committee another Parliamentary committee this morning. I members will want to reach more widely—I am welcome to the meeting Willie Rennie MSP, who sure of that. is attending as substitute. The Convener: Thank you, cabinet secretary. I This morning’s meeting will include two will turn to questions. The first is about anomalies evidence sessions. We will take evidence from the in local authority areas. For example, rural areas Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, Europe and with low transmission rates are being affected by External Affairs on subordinate legislation until urban areas with higher transmission rates. Has 10:30 am. I will then suspend the meeting for up to any decision been made about applying a more 15 minutes to allow a changeover of witnesses. regional approach within local authority areas? I The committee will then take evidence from ask that with special regard to the Highlands and stakeholders on the impact of possible restrictions Islands and your constituency of Argyll and Bute, during winter. which is a potential example of such a situation. The first item on the agenda is evidence from Michael Russell: You and I are both very the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, Europe and aware of that issue, particularly in Argyll and Bute. External Affairs on the Health Protection We are taking part in a discussion with the Islay (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) resilience committee on Friday morning about that (Local Levels) (Scotland) Amendment (No 2) issue. In places like Islay and Mull, and in Regulations 2020. The SSI gives effect to the mainland areas of other local authorities, there will restrictions that were announced by the First clearly be concerns—as there are in mainland Minister last Tuesday, 10 November, which have areas of Argyll and Bute—about substantial now come into force. differences in prevalence between areas. I will ask Jason Leitch to say a word or two about that, The cabinet secretary is accompanied by because we addressed it last time we were both at Professor Jason Leitch, who is the national clinical the committee. director in the Scottish Government. I welcome you both to the meeting and invite the cabinet However, although there remains a commitment secretary to make a brief opening statement to examine the matter, it is complex and before we turn to opening questions. complicated. There are issues of observance, information and unexpected outbreaks. There The Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, have been cases on Mull in recent weeks, and Europe and External Affairs (Michael Russell): there are cases on Benbecula, which is in a level 1 Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the area. I would like to see such changes, but I think regulations with the committee. As on previous that it is not currently possible to completely occasions when I have appeared before the embrace and encompass them because of their committee—which have been many and varied, I complications. For example, there remain issues have to say—I am open to questions, as Jason in relation to travel that are contentious even Leitch will be, on issues that arise. between local authority areas. The regulations to be discussed formally today At present, the best opportunity for any area is adjust the levels-based approach that is currently for the whole area to come down through the in place across Scotland. They modify some 3 18 NOVEMBER 2020 4 levels. However, I am still keen to see progress as place, in different forms, for around a month. In the we move forward, and I remain committed to light of the sustained high number of cases, have achieving that. those measures been effective? I would also welcome your views on whether the level of public Perhaps Jason Leitch would like to say a word compliance has changed over the past few or two about our approach. Issues of commonality, months. such as in use of medical services, also impinge on decisions; they are not simply about Professor Leitch: That is the million dollar geography. question to which the world wants an answer, and it is one that I am commonly asked. The second Professor Jason Leitch (Scottish most common is, “Why can I do this but not that?” Government): Thank you for having me back, and the most common is, “Where is transmission convener. Good morning, everyone. happening?” I want to underline two points, both of which Mr We can never be absolutely sure where Russell has covered. One is the communal nature transmission is happening. We can get themes of our healthcare services. For example, for from test and protect data, and the genomics people on Arran, University hospital Crosshouse helps us a little. From the fundamental science on and the Queen Elizabeth university hospital would the virus, we know that transmission happens be used as the principal escalation hospitals. If when people come together—when a positive those were busy with cases from Glasgow city, I case meets a non-positive case. All the virus am afraid that that would be a consequence of our wants to do is jump from someone in whom it is needing intensive care units. Much of that work already hosted to a new person in whom it is not. can be done in NHS Ayrshire and Arran, but as we Every time people meet—at work, at play, at escalate cases, we escalate numbers. For a child school or wherever else—that is possible, from Arran, escalation would be to one of the therefore trying to reduce such opportunities is the Ayrshire hospitals and then the Royal hospital for way forward. children in Glasgow—quite rightly, because that is where the high-level expertise is. That is why the lockdown worked, from 23 March in our country and in multiple other versions The other issue is, unfortunately, the nature of around the world. However, if we look at the data, the infectious agent—how quickly the virus takes we can see that it took eight weeks for us to get to hold. Since we last met, there has been a very low numbers of cases, because it takes a significant outbreak on Arran. Because the island long time for the virus to come out of the system previously had almost no cases, in the restrictions and the numbers to go down. that we are discussing, which were made a week or so ago, we could have decided not to put it on On 9 October, I and my senior clinical the same level as the rest of the Ayrshire and colleagues published an evidence paper that said Arran NHS area. That would probably not have that the doubling time for positive cases of the made any difference to that recent outbreak. virus was nine days. At that time we had around However, that outbreak illustrates that one case 1,000 cases per day.